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Originally Posted by jorgelito
If someone decides to smoke and then gets cancer as a result, well then, I am very sorry but you have to take responsibility for your own actions. I would be very pissed if I had to to subsidize someone elses irresponsible choices. I work very hard for my salary and benefits.
So then, would socialized medicine be abused as a fix it all system for irresponsible people? I stay healthy and am careful with my actions because I do not want the expense of health care (especially when before I didn't have any insurance at all. A broken hand cost me $7500 cash). Therefore, I acted responsibly. I think free health care would just open up a wealth of abuse and overburden the system. People abuse the health care system here in LA to the extent that hospitals have to close down and ER centers close too.
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Everyone pays taxes, therefore everyone would pay for a great deal of the system. It wouldn't be you funding other people, it would be the whole funding the whole. Irresponsible people... wait, by that do you mean those who purposefully hurt themselves? Or do you mean people who aren't responsible to make a lot of money?
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Originally Posted by jorgelito
Having said that, I do agree that the healthcare system is in need of reform. I'm not sure which part needs fixing: doctors, insurance, hospitals, patients or lawsuits.
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All of it should be examined carefully, I think.
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Originally Posted by jorgelito
Will, you mentioned that you think the insurance companies are to blame. Can you expand on that a little? I used to think the same thing but I'm not so sure. Maybe Jazz can give us some insight. I do know in my case, I paid $7500 cash for surgery on my broken hand. The doctor gave me a steep discount because he knew I just graduated and therefore no longer covered by school insurance and did not have a job yet. The hospital charged the most despite my financial hardship. They told me that if I had insurance, they would have charged around $25,000. I almost had a heart attack. I actually know why they charge so much but that is for another thread.
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I don't have figures comparing the average cost of health insurance for an individual vs. the average amount the insurance pays out to said individual, but considering the soaring profits from the industry, I can imagine that people pay more than they get. That's how all insurance industries work. They make a profit from the amount they don't have to pay out (which is outlined in Sicko by showing health care professionals who are asked to deny coverage to people, and who even have denial quotas to reach). Between the high cost of insurance with the lower cost in taxes in places like France, the UK, and Canada, a clear picture appears. Their system is a good samaritan system. Our system is an individual supporting themselves system. I imagine, then, it boils down to philosophy. Clearly, most people in the US think that police work and firefighters and the likes shouldn't require you to pay a private corporation. We get fire coverage and police coverage for relatively cheap (if you were to compare it to health coverage, though it might be a case of apples and oranges in people's minds).
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Originally Posted by jorgelito
It's the same with car repair/service too apparently. Different prices depending on whether or not you have insurance.
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That's absolutely true, but I wonder how much less we'd be paying if those companies weren't looking for a continually larger profit.
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Originally Posted by jorgelito
I am interested in hearing about the Canada and UK systems.
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UK
Canada
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Originally Posted by Xazy
I would not really mention Clinton taking care of health care. It is 14 years since she started talking about it, and I have yet to see any results. Her current plan she released was very similiar to the one Edwards released (before she did). And do not forget that she was on the board of directors of Walmart which is known for their employees not having health care (though last year I believe their rate went up to 46%).
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She's no where near perfect, but a lot of why she had to shut up was in the film. In the early 90s, as I'm sure most know, she fought veraciously for better health care. She brought it all the way to congressional committees, until George J. Mitchell, the Senate Majority Leader shot it down and took with it a great deal of her political clout. As a result of this defeat and the resulting loss of political power, she lost her ability to fight. Now, she's a Presidential front runner. If she wins, the bought and paid for Senate Majority leader won't be there any more to get in her way. With the Dem congress, they have a good chance of getting something done, if they're not too busy not helping the troops.
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Originally Posted by Xazy
I am not a Moore fan but I do agree health care is a huge issue.
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I think that's something we all can agree on.
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Originally Posted by ubertuber
I have to think that at least part of the problem is that, culturally, in this country we have a hard time making tough ethical decisions through law.
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This is an absolutely brilliant point. I imagine this would be a lot easier if we were able to translate ethics through lawmaking. I'm not really sure as to how one would address a broad problem like this. Maybe we have stronger ethics training in schools, so the next generation will have the ethical technologies necessary to make the decisions the leaders of today have trouble with?
Jazz, so you're saying doctors (who are making less than in the 80s and 90s), new technology (something that has always been present in medicine), and drug companies (I COMPLETELY AGREE ON THIS ONE). I have trouble believing that the skyrocketing costs can really be attributed to doctors or technology in any big way. When I was getting my heart surgery in the late 80s, the Catscan machines and EKG machines were very expensive. As I understand it, as a layman who's simply spent a lot of time talking to doctors, a great deal of the money is going into administration, insurance, and prescriptions. I would call those the big three reasons, based on my understanding.
May I ask what you would do to help those 45m who are uninsured in the capitalist system you were describing?
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Originally Posted by roachboy
interesting post, mister jazz...objections to it:
capitalism is not one thing: there can be and are any number of institutional arrangements that operate within that general context--there is no contradiction between capitalism and universal health care. capitalism has no "natural logic" to it--there is no normative capitalist system relative to which others can be parsed. the american system follows not from any such natural logic within capitalism: it follows from political choices made by "representatives" from within the ruling oligarchy....
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Thank you very much for pointing this out. Canada is no less capitalist for having universal health care just as we are no less capitalist for having socialized fire protection.
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Originally Posted by roachboy
the french model is far more interesting and effective than is the british.
it is a mixed system: the only reason that it is not a part of the debate concerning potential models for a system less barbaric than the present one in the states--which operates according to a logic that (i'll say this again) amounts to the assumption that the lives of the children of the wealthy are worth more than the lives of the children of the poor---seems to me a function of linguistic ignorance/chauvinism (take your pick, they're the same thing from different angles). the french system delivers better health care on a more equitably basis than does the american and than does the british/canadian model. period. it is also a curiously bureaucratic system which profiles in the way the french state does--which is based on a different legal tradition than you have in the states--so if the americans were to come to their collective senses and realise that there is something ethically Wrong about a medical system that is stratified on class lines in terms of access and were to adopt the french model, it would look quite differently than it does in france.
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I agree. Too often we ironically thumb our noses at France. Yes, yes: cheese, frogs, surrender, coffee. It's all fun and games until you realize just how much easier it is to live under a lot of their social programs, especially their health care which did deserve it's rating of #1 from the WHO. If, by some mericle, we did ever switch to the system the French use, I suspect a lot of people would complain about taxes...until they needed the system. Then, suddenly, they would shut up like Bush not remembering the name of a head of state. "Old Francy!"
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Originally Posted by The_Jazz
That said, the health insurance industry works within the free market. Perhaps that is a better term than the overarching "capitalism". The free market allows consumers, whether they be corporate or individual, to chose the plan that best meets their needs and budget. The obvious flaw is the group that can't (or in some cases won't) pay the premiums necessary to offset their risk. Those people end up costing the system billions of dollars and remains one of the biggest reasons that doctors and hospitals agitate for higher prices from the insurers. The insurers, on the other hand, can demonstrate that their clients/insureds do not deserve to pay the higher prices because they are in better health and cost less to treat. They also have the benefit of group negotiations.
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It has a lot to do with collective vs. individual, and that's a much more difficult call in a free market. I do have to wonder, though, if a free market is
always right, or just
usually right. I think we can see that an 'unfree' health care system can flourish when we look at the rest of the Western World. Does that mean it will work here? Not necessarily, but considering how much better they have it there, I keep coming back to the thought, "Well, it can't really get much worse." Also, I'm a bit of a socialist, so my take on this is bound to be different than other people here who are less socialist.
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Originally Posted by connyosis
I just saw Sicko and I was shocked by seeing how the less fortunate can be treated. I'm seriously going to stop complaining about high taxes here in Sweden. For the first time in my life I'm actually happy we have them (And how fucked up is that?).
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Hahaha...yeah sometimes it's hard to see what you're paying for when it's all you know. Things could be a lot worse in Sweden (the swedest country of them all).