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Originally Posted by Telluride
I agree, but I happen to think immigration laws should be strictly enforced. I don't think illegal immigrants should be beheaded, flogged or forced to watch music videos from rap and emo artists. That would be cruel and counter-productive. But I wouldn't consider it mistreatment to send an illegal back to wherever he or she came from.
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I understand what you're saying. My first thought would go to how. I doubt we can send them all packing, considering pure numbers. It wouldn't be reasonable to spend the money and manpower that would be necessary to send even half of them home. My second thought would be why, BESIDES THE LAW. Aren't most of them doing hard work? Aren't they functioning members of our society? When you eat a raisin, you're probably eating something that was picked by an undocumented worker in the area of agricultural land around Fresno. If grapes were picked by people who made minimum wage, you'd have to seriously consider removing raisins from your budget. I love tomatoes. I would have to grow them myself or stop eating them. I don't have a back yard big enough to fit the all the fruit and veggies me and my family need. I happen to grow veggies in my back yard, and I know that even using my whole back yard, we'd need to supplement the amount of food with a large secondary source. I'm estimating that I could only supply 1/3 of our veggies. And I'd never eat a banana again, as they don't grow as well in a Mediterranean climate like I have here.
These are logistical concerns outside of the philosophical argument, which may not be resolved.
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Originally Posted by Telluride
I'm willing to risk it. And I'm not convinced that Americans being forced to mow their own lawns and clean their own homes will result in a crisis. It wasn't that long ago that people actually did stuff like this for themselves. And even if there are some issues, I kinda see it as a form of "tough love". I think the only real potential for problems may be with agriculture. Perhaps prison labor would alleviate that?
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When the US was much more agrarian and had a much smaller population, it was reasonable. We'd have to see a lot of deaths in order to be able to pay fair wages for lower work.
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Originally Posted by Telluride
They are "breaking and entering", though. Breaking into someone's house is illegal, regardless of what happens once the person gets inside. Immigration laws should be enforced the same way and for the same reason: property rights (which would be known as "sovereignty" on the national level).
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I'm still not sure as to why you think it should be illegal. You started talking about sovereignty, and I was starting to follow, but saying something is wrong because it's illegal doesn't make sense. That's like saying it's wrong because it's wrong.
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Originally Posted by Telluride
A complete collapse of our economy from which we could never, ever recover.
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I won't say that'll definitely happen, but if we were to somehow expel all undocumented workers, we'd be looking at a MASSIVE crisis.
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Originally Posted by Telluride
Plenty of lawbreakers have trade skills and speak English. I see your point, but it doesn't change my mind. I don't believe that one's appeal to employers should be used to excuse violations of important laws.
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I understand what you're saying. Sovereignty is important to you. I can respect that.
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Originally Posted by Telluride
Agreed.
I've really enjoyed this discussion but we may have to just agree to disagree on the whole issue. I definitely understand your concerns and I think you understand mine, but I honestly don't see either of us budging much.  |
I'm willing to respectfully disagree. I've done it a few times on TFP.