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Old 05-27-2007, 05:24 PM   #18 (permalink)
Terrell
Insane
 
Location: Orlando, Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
Okay, so by "special," you meant those determined by U.S. law as opposed to those that underly our humanity.
Yes, being the same species alone isn't enough reason to require that a person risk their life to stop a crime or rescue someone. Simply calling the cops, alone should be considered both a morally and legally acceptable response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
This is where things get muddied. Aren't laws created on moral grounds?
Moral grounds in and of themelves aren't sufficent to be the cause of a law. Besides, who decides what is moral? What are their reasons for said decisions? Are they rational? Are they up to date? Do they consider the situation holistically, and thoroughly or do they give in to emotion, tradition, or religion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
Just laws also ensure that those subject to them cannot opt out of the social order.
Not necessarily, if the social order is inherently unfair to a person or group of people how does enforcing the social order make such a law just? There are examples in human history of such laws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
If a law exists that requires one to intervene if they witnesses a crime such as this beating, then they are subject to the penalties for not doing so.
Such a law would be unjust, as it requires people to risk their lives for strangers. In addition how much danger a person should be required to risk to save a victim, whether it's of crime or other danger, is subjective by it's very nature.

Should a 6'4 250 pound man be held to a different standard than a 5'2' 110 pound woman under the law in such a situation? If so, then you have a 14th Amendment problem, because they don't have equal protection under the law, (one is required to risk his life in a situation where the other isn't required to risk hers) if not then you overlook the fact that a 6'4'' 250lb man is probably more capable in physical combat than a 5'2" 110 pound woman. To treat either party differently under the law in this case is wrong both morally and constitutionally.

Such a law would also encourage vigiliantism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
If no such law exists, they are merely subject to moral judgement of choosing their own safety over the well being of an old man. And it isn't about protecting a stranger, it's about protecting a fellow citizen who is subject to the same rules and system of values as everyone else.
It is about protecting a stranger, because you know nothing about the person whose being attacked other than those things you can know simply by looking at the person. Citizenship isn't something that you can tell by looking at someone here in the US. Even if you could, if the victim were an illegal immigrant, or even a legal immigrant that hadn't become a naturalized citizen, would the standard be different?

The bystanders didn't have a way of knowing that the victim was a citizen and a world war II vet simply by looking at him at the time of the attack, unless he was wearing clothing that would identify him as such, and the people knew the meaning of said identifying clothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
Ignoring their right to this is to undermine your own. And this so-called "signing up" can be argued to have already happened. We are bound—contractually, in a way—by merely being citizens subject to a particular system of justice. If we break this contract, we are breaking our agreement to respect the harmony of society.
I don't claim to have a right against other civilians to require that they come to my aid if I'm being attacked by criminals or otherwise in danger. That's the duty of the law enforcement personnel, the duty that they're paid to do. The most that can justly be asked in my opinion, is for the civilians to call law enforcment at the earliest safe opportunity to do so. Even then there are potential problems, should the law attempt to prosecute.

I didn't sign up for this simply by being born. The nature of being born is that it's a decision made solely by one's parents, without one's input. In addition most people are citizens of the country that they were born in (in my case the United States). It may not be practical for me to leave the US and become a citizen of another country, simply because there are some laws that I don't agree with. And some that are proposed that I don't agree with. Signing up for a positive duty, should require some willing action on MY part, not the part of my parents.

Any duties that come with citizenship should be limit to negative ones as far as the physical body is concerned, in my opinion. An example of a negative duty is to refrain from inflicting harm on others. One shouldn't be requried to put your life on the line for a stranger when one isn't employed by either the police force or the military.

The only positive duty I can see being justified is the draft, and that is only in VERY limited circumstances. WWII would be the last good example that would justify a draft in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
Do the cops always get their man?
Does it really matter as to this discussion? In this specific case, something is being done. Is there human institution that has a 100% success rate on all things all the time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
I don't see this as being completely right, either. If I were to witness someone beat an old man to death and I decided to do absolutely nothing, I'm pretty sure it would haunt me for a long time.
That's your choice, mine would be to dial 911 from the nearest phone and summon law enforcement.

Last edited by Terrell; 05-27-2007 at 05:27 PM..
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