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Originally Posted by ratbastid
You know what? All this noise with ace is just... noise.
The assertion is that Cheney (and by extension, Bush, although he's not specifically targeted yet) illegally manipulated the information used to convince congress and the public to support their war. Operative word: illegal. Just as illegal as Clinton lying under oath about the nature of his relationship with Lewinsky. Illegal. Prosecutable. Impeachable. That's the point.
I really don't care how anybody feels about the nature of the information, whether it was lies, whatever. The assertion that's being made in these articles is that such manipulation of information was illegal. Period, end of story.
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Is "noise" a request to back-up an assertion of illegal activity with facts?
Does Kucinich provide proof that Cheney or Bush manipulated intelligence? What is it? Does anyone provide proof? What is it?
Did anyone other than Bush/Chaney bear any responsibility for the intelligence data used to support the war? Who?
Did you rely on statements from Bush/Chaney - if you actually ever supported the pre-emptive strike?
Did members of Congress lie when they made statements cosistent with the statements made by Bush/Cheney that Iraq was a threat? If not why not?
I agree there has been alot of "noise" in this discussion, I am just looking for some simple answers to basic questions. So far, I have not read any and at this point I don't expect any. It seems the general feeling is that bush and Cheney lied or illegally manipulated intlligence data and that facts don't really matter.
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Originally Posted by host
ace, I don't think that you consider yet what Tenet's interview changes. If you haven't, please watch the entire interview at the crooks and liars link that I already posted.
Tenet says that revealing Valerie Plame's name had a serious negative effect on the people who he managed and led at CIA.....<b>that's the opposite of what you and other Bush/Cheney supporters have maintained:</b>
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I saw the interview.
I agree, politics can be an ugly business. If I were Plame, I would not have allowed my husband to write editorial pieces for major newspapers while I was undercover, period. I don't excuse the White House for leaking her name, but if you are undercover, act like it.
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Tenet says that the "Slam Dunk" attribution made about him, could only have been told to Bob Woodward by four other people, besides Andy Carr, and Tenet did not think that Carr did it. He did say that Bush was one of the four. Since Tenet says he was saying "Slam Dunk" about the CIA's ability to greatly improve a presentation about the Iraq threat that Bush had seen and been very disappointed in, and not about the "case"...the justification to go to war, he regarded the distorted "Slam Dunk" leak to Woodward as a white house effort to discredit him, to scapegoat him as the one who told Bush that war against Iraq was justified. Tenet resigned just a short time, afterwards, and Bush/Cheney <b>have only now.....lost the "cover" of their false assertions that Tenet said justification for going to war was a "Slam Dunk"</b>:
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The justification for going to war was a "slam dunk". I don't recall Bush saying Tenet's statement in that meeting was the reason he wanted to invade Iraq. Do you have that quote for Bush?
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....ace, what has changed is that "Slam Dunk" was not a "reco" from Tenet that Bush should order US troops to invade Iraq, like the white house wanted us to believe, for exactly the laat three years.
We know that Bush claimed to "make an effort to avoid going to war".
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Sadaam had opportunity to comply with UN resolutions. Sadaam had opportunity to announce to the world and let the world verify that he had no stock piles of WMD. Saddam had opportunity to not shoot at our planes. Saddam had opportunity to not give $25k to terrorist's families. Sadaam had opportunity to be humble.
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How did he do that, when he did not ask his key cabinet and intelligence leader, or even his father something like,
but... Bush did not ask this from his father, his Sectary of Defense, of State, or of his CIA director.
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If I were against the war and in the President's circle, I would have said: Mr. President we should not invade Iraq for these reasons. There would not have been a need for the President to ask me the question. It seems Powell did that. So it looks like Powell was the only one with guts, or the only one against the war.
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Who the hell is Bush, and what was he thinking? I find these revelations of extreme concern and alarm, and you probably find it appealing....
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I find it not material to the OP.
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How can a president claim to be making every effort to avoid war, without asking anyone but NSA's Rice and Karen Hughes, whether to do it, and how to avoid it, if possible?
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He didn't ask me either? So what. When dealing with a man like Bush, you have to speak your mind. He knew what he wanted, the people around him needed to say what they thought if they actually thought it was a mistake. Congress needed to say what they actually thought if they thought it was a mistake.
Take Bush's upcoming veto of the military spending bill as an example. I bet he didn't ask anyone if he should veto the bill. He knew and knows what he was going to do. So, after the fact I can not accept people coming out of the closet with books or whatever, saying I thought the veto was a mistake, but Bush never asked me, so I did not say anything. That would truely be a line of bull.