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Originally Posted by shakran
Yes, but the trouble is that that research is done on living breathing thinking people, and it's generally considered unethical to screw with someone's childhood in the name of psychological research. You can't treat a boy as a girl from birth in order to find out if he still grows up wanting to shoot things. You have to wait for some asshole child abuser to do it for you and then study the kid. In fact, I noticed a case of that several years ago on the wires - -mom wanted a daughter so badly that she dressed her son as a girl - - -he thought he was a girl even after he started going to school. I'd be interested to see how he's doing now - if he displays normal male tendencies or if he's a more "feminine" male because of his feminine-laced upbringing.
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I have a few comments:
1) Because we cannot examine rearing practices experimentally does not mean that all sex differences can be attributed to "socialization".
2) We do have examples of efforts to treat a boy as a girl from birth. Check out Dr. Money's research or research on 5-alpha reductase deficiency. It doesn't work out.
3) Sex differentiation of the brain occurs during gestation in humans. This is established.
4) We can use behavior genetics methods like twin studies and adoption studies to examine the relative impact of genes, shared environmental factors, and unshared environmental factors on the development of psychological traits.
5) Through
strong inference, we can investigate the relative merits of different theories of human development and psychology. If the results of experiments come out in favor of an evolutionary or behavior genetic position, we have support for that account of development. If they come out in favor of a "socialization" position, we have support for that account of development. We don't need to randomly assign people to sex roles to investigate these issues.
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Originally Posted by Seaver
Second, every one of those animal societies are devoid of communication. THE most powerful aspect in ANY human-to-human relationship is communication.
Think about it, a silverback gorilla can individually dominate their whole pack. The gorillas do not have a very complicated communication system, however. We as a society can make alliances in which we can take down the alpha male (watch survivor, you'll see). The physical dominance does not rule a relationship in which the woman seeks help from other humans. Would you turn down a plea for help from a female who was utterly physically controlled by a strong man?
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Humans are not unique in having complex communication and coordinating alliances to overthrow leaders (or attack other groups). Look at research by Jane Goodall or Frans De Waal for examples in chimps.
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Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
Yes, and I think it would also be important to note in particular the difference between menstruation and estrus. The latter occurs in mammals such as dogs and cats, where the female shows noticeable physiological changes that will reveal when she is ready to mate. The male will know the opportune time to take a chance at passing on his genes by playing his part in creating offspring.
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I would argue that it's more concealed ovulation than menstruation, but, yes, I agree.
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Originally Posted by Mister Coaster
But this is exactly my point. Over millions of years of evolution, Homo Sapiens emerged from a society which was probably most like the one of your gorilla example. Physical male dominance, little or rudamentary communication. Yes, humans have come a long way from this model, but this is engrained in our nature, wether we acknowledge it or not.
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1) I would argue that "little or rudimentary communication" does not characterize Gorillas.
2) There is no reason to expect that our common ancestor with gorillas was exactly like gorillas. Chimps and bonobos are both more closely related to us than gorillas and they have mating systems different from gorillas.
3) I'm not arguing against a "human nature". I am arguing against your particular characterization of "human nature".