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Yakk · 04-22-2007, 06:48 AM

If you cannot predict the future, then it hasn't been determined.

If you cannot predict the past, then it isn't fixed.

Claims that the universe is deterministic are non-functional philsophy: they make claims about things, and cannot produce the evidence required to back those claims up.

If it is determined what I do tommorrow, tell me now. You cannot?

Ok, make a testable prediction that would be true if it was determined what I will do tommorrow, and false if it isn't determined what I will do tommorrow. Demonstrate the connection.

You cannot? Then why are you wasting time with that nonsense?

The model of humans as "free-willed" actors is a better, more accurate, model of the universe we are experiencing at this point than the model of the universe where human actions are determined solely by their inputs.

Now, does this "free-will" work all the way down? At the lowest levels we can reduce the world to, Q-M kicks in, and the future is not determined. At medium levels of moles of particles, statistical predictions can be made on unorganized piles of particles, but not for sufficiently complex systems. Chaos theory can be used on complex systems: given a system of the complexity of the human mind/body, are Q-M fluxutations sufficient to produce nondeterministic behaviour after a period of time T? I don't think even that question has been answered.

At the sociological level, the best we can do with predicting human behaviour is statistical. This is less prediction and more description of tendencies.

Much as when modelling a room of near-ideal gas, you use ideal gas laws and thermodynamics, when modelling human behaviour, the free-will model works pretty damn well.

I don't believe (A or ~A) is always true. I don't have a use for that hypothesis.

Given that you cannot predict the results of something, claiming that they are predictable is a meaningless claim. Bio-environmental determinism is thus bumpkis.

Causation breaks down in our universe, first because of Q-M, and second because we don't have a model of the universe accurate enough to describe it to the levels required.

04-22-2007, 06:48 AM	#23 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	If you cannot predict the future, then it hasn't been determined. If you cannot predict the past, then it isn't fixed. Claims that the universe is deterministic are non-functional philsophy: they make claims about things, and cannot produce the evidence required to back those claims up. If it is determined what I do tommorrow, tell me now. You cannot? Ok, make a testable prediction that would be true if it was determined what I will do tommorrow, and false if it isn't determined what I will do tommorrow. Demonstrate the connection. You cannot? Then why are you wasting time with that nonsense? The model of humans as "free-willed" actors is a better, more accurate, model of the universe we are experiencing at this point than the model of the universe where human actions are determined solely by their inputs. Now, does this "free-will" work all the way down? At the lowest levels we can reduce the world to, Q-M kicks in, and the future is not determined. At medium levels of moles of particles, statistical predictions can be made on unorganized piles of particles, but not for sufficiently complex systems. Chaos theory can be used on complex systems: given a system of the complexity of the human mind/body, are Q-M fluxutations sufficient to produce nondeterministic behaviour after a period of time T? I don't think even that question has been answered. At the sociological level, the best we can do with predicting human behaviour is statistical. This is less prediction and more description of tendencies. Much as when modelling a room of near-ideal gas, you use ideal gas laws and thermodynamics, when modelling human behaviour, the free-will model works pretty damn well. I don't believe (A or ~A) is always true. I don't have a use for that hypothesis. Given that you cannot predict the results of something, claiming that they are predictable is a meaningless claim. Bio-environmental determinism is thus bumpkis. Causation breaks down in our universe, first because of Q-M, and second because we don't have a model of the universe accurate enough to describe it to the levels required. __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.