Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - They're Still Doing it.....Still Lying while US Troops are Dying in Iraq for???

host · 04-09-2007, 11:10 AM

No, ace...."the problem" clearly is that the lies are neccessary, because when they are all stripped out....exposed as lies...and I've tried mightily, here, to limit my presentation to examining and debunking just one of the major lies....I've avoided the WMD lie, and the "Atta was in Prague" lie, and the "Saddam was an imminent threat...we have to stop him before we see mushroom clouds, etc....", because, wihout the lies, all that remains as justification is pre-emptive war, which is war of aggression, which is a war crime...along with all of the associated destruction that it results in.

THEY OWN IT, ace....and if they were comfortable it was not a war crime to invade and to occupy Iraq, they would not cling so stubbornly to such obvious lies, as "al Zarqawi was in Baghdad, he received medical treatment, he ran a "poison camp" in Iraq.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

The military is HIGHLY conservative. In '04 they voted something like 87% Republican.

People still enlist, or try to as I had just a few months ago (back problems), because they probably feel like I did the desire to serve our country in need.

As for the coward? In my opinion he joined with the expressed desire to become a posterboy for the left. Considering his father's Vietnam experience (of draft dodging), considering he comes from a very liberal area, and considering he joined AFTER the war started... in my opinion he had it planned out long in advance.

Quote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...884409,00.html
Bush: new al-Qaida link to Iraq

US to rally support by releasing secret files

Julian Borger in Washington and Ewen MacAskill
Wednesday January 29, 2003

.....Mr Bush said America's course did not depend on the decisions of others: "Whatever action is required , whatever action is necessary. It will defend the freedom and security of the American people."

Mr Bush revealed that the US had fresh evidence of links between Iraq and al-Qaida, as Washington prepared to release its secret files on Saddam Hussein in a bid to gain global support for a war.

"This country has many challenges. We will not deny, we will not ignore, we will not pass along our problems to other congresses, other presidents and other generations," Mr Bush said, in an emotive appeal to American patriotism. "We will confront them with focus and clarity and courage."

President Bush announced the creation of an office under the CIA director, George Tenet, that would analyse foreign and domestic intelligence, dissolving the formal barrier that had until now separated the work of the CIA and the FBI. Both agencies have been criticised in the wake of September 11 for failing to share information.

He argued that this new doctrine and the US's consequent intervention around the world, did not represent a new form of imperialism. "America is a strong nation, and honorable in the use of our strength. We exercise power without conquest, and sacrifice for the liberty of strangers."

Mr Bush did not go into detail about the allegation of a connection between Baghdad and Osama bin Laden but, according the White House, it was built largely on the questioning of al-Qaida detainees.

Mr Powell, is expected to reveal further intelligence on the link at a climactic meeting of the security council......

Also from Jan. 2003...just days before Powell's UN presentation:

Quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/30/in...st/30QAED.html
U.S. Focuses on Iraqi Links to Group Allied to Al Qaeda
By DAVID JOHNSTON and DON VAN NATTA Jr.

WASHINGTON, Jan. 29 — After months of scouring for hard evidence of a connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda, the Bush administration is focusing on possible links between Saddam Hussein and Islamic extremists who may have produced poisons in northern Iraq and a Qaeda terrorist leader who spent time in Baghdad last year.

Those suspected ties are at the heart of the administration's latest attempt to demonstrate an Iraqi-Qaeda connection as it tries to persuade the American public and the world that Mr. Hussein's government must be ousted. Secretary of State Colin L. Powell is expected to present the evidence of the connection to the United Nations Security Council next Wednesday.

Administration officials, relying on largely dated and previously disclosed information, have said they believe there may be a link between Ansar al-Islam, an Islamic extremist group operating in a remote section of northern Iraq, and the Baghdad government. The organization has been fighting Kurdish groups that oppose the Iraqi regime.

Members of the group, once led by Mullah Krekar, were trained in Qaeda camps in Afghanistan before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on the United States, and American officials believe the organization can be described as affiliated with Al Qaeda.

Some administration officials have described Mullah Krekar as a link between Mr. Hussein and Al Qaeda. Mullah Krekar, who was detained by Dutch officials last year, has dismissed the assertions as lies.

The Bush administration's most compelling evidence may center on possible ties between Baghdad and terrorist figures like Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi, a leading Qaeda chemical weapons expert. Mr. Zarqawi has come under increased scrutiny in recent months by British and American intelligence officials.

British investigators are said to be trying to determine whether Mr. Zarqawi had any connection to the deadly poison ricin that was found in a London apartment on Jan. 5.

Mr. Powell, in interviews with European television reporters, repeated President Bush's contention that the United States has information showing links between Iraq and Al Qaeda. But Mr. Powell said the administration had no evidence of a link with the Sept. 11 attacks — though he would not rule out that there was such a connection.

Recently, there have been possible signs of links between Ansar al-Islam and attempts by extremists in Europe to use poisons in terrorist attacks. Officials said the United States has received reports that Ansar al-Islam may have tried to produce poisons in its sanctuary in northern Iraq.

There has been a long-running debate within the intelligence community about group's links to the Iraqi government, and officials said there is still no consensus. Some intelligence officials say that they believe the Iraqi government has tolerated the existence of the extremist group, which has fought Mr. Hussein's opponents, the ethnic Kurds, in northern Iraq.

American analysts also suspect that the Iraqi government may have provided some support for Ansar al-Islam over the years. But officials say there is no agreement over whether the Baghdad regime controls the group or whether it uses it as a channel to Al Qaeda.

Most of the evidence is ambiguous, like the information in the case of the Mr. Zarqawi, a Jordanian who received medical treatment in Baghdad last year after he lost a leg fighting in Afghanistan.

American officials said they believe the Iraqi government found out Mr. Zarqawi was in their country. Jordanian officials told the Iraqis that they knew that the Qaeda leader was in a Baghdad hospital and asked that he be turned over to them. Mr. Zarqawi left Baghdad and disappeared. American officials say they do not know his whereabouts but believe he has played a role in several recent terrorist strikes in the

Middle East and Europe. click to show

American intelligence officials said they were not aware of any new information from Qaeda operatives in custody. The officials said that that the most compelling information from detainees concerning Iraq came early last year, when one or more Qaeda operatives in custody talked about a possible effort by Iraq to train Qaeda members in the use of chemical and biological weapons.

Quote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...885115,00.html
Al-Qaida and Iraq: how strong is the evidence?

Sources say case pushed by Bush and Blair linking Saddam and Bin Laden is not based on hard facts

Julian Borger in Washington, Richard Norton-Taylor and Michael Howard
Thursday January 30, 2003
The Guardian

President Bush used his state of the union address to paint a terrifying picture for the American people of another attack like September 11 - but this time with chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. Tony Blair reinforced the message yesterday by telling the Commons: "We do know of links between al-Qaida and Iraq. We cannot be sure of the exact extent of those links."

However, a number of well-placed sources in Whitehall insisted there was no intelligence suggesting such a link. "While we have said there may possibly be individuals in the country [Iraq] we have never said anything to suggest specific links between al-Qaida and Saddam Hussein," said one.

Establishing the link is essential to persuading the public that Iraq represents an imminent threat, and President Bush insisted that hard evidence in the shape of "intelligence sources, secret communications, and statements by people now in custody" proved the connection was real.

But the intelligence analysts in the US and Britain on whose work the president's claim was supposedly based say the connections are tangential at best, and the available evidence falls far short of proving a secret relationship between Baghdad and Osama bin Laden. One intelligence source in Washington, who has seen CIA material on the link, described the case as "soft" and "squishy".

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi

That case relies heavily on a man called Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian member of the al-Qaida leadership who was wounded in the leg in the US-led bombing of Afghanistan. In late 2001, according to US intelligence sources, he sought medical treatment in Iran but was deported and fled to Baghdad, where his leg was amputated. Telephone calls he made to his family in Jordan were intercepted. The question is whether Saddam Hussein's regime knew who he was and whether it offered him any assistance. "Yes, we have him telling his family I'm here in Baghdad in hospital, but he's not saying: 'And by the way, I'm getting all this help from Saddam,' " said a well-informed source in Washington.

Ansar al-Islam

According to Jordanian intelligence, Zarqawi left Baghdad after his surgery and travelled to northern Iraq, possibly through Iran, where he joined up with Ansar al-Islam, a militant Islamist group comprising some 700 Kurdish members controlling a string of villages on the Iranian border of the Kurdish self-rule area. The group harbours up to 120 al-Qaida members including Lebanese, Jordanians, Moroccans, Syrians, Palestinians and Afghans, and is fighting a turf war with the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan.

The group is thought to be the creature of Osama bin Laden's second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri. Its leader, Mullah Krekar, was detained by Dutch police last September after arriving on a flight from Iran because Jordan had asked for his extradition, accusing him of drugs trafficking. He now enjoys refugee status in Norway.

While evidence of Ansar al-Islam's links to al-Qaida are comparatively strong, its links with President Saddam remain largely circumstantial. Villages in the area around Ansar territory have reported seeing Iraqi Mukhabarat agents making contact with Ansar operatives. There are also reports that TNT seized from Ansar during one of their assassination attempts on Kurdish officials was produced by the Iraqi military and that arms are sent to the group from areas controlled by President Saddam.

About a dozen senior members of Ansar trained at a camp in Afghanistan which specialised in chemical and biological weapons, such as ricin.

The Ansar-Baghdad debate in US intelligence circles reflects a rift between the CIA and a special intelligence office set up in the Pentagon by the under-secretary for defence, Douglas Feith. The CIA tends to be sceptical and hostile to the Iraqi National Congress which has produced many of the recent defectors. The Pentagon is readier to listen to the INC's defectors, and has established a separate channel of information to the White House, outside the control of the CIA director, George Tenet......

Quote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/
By Jim Miklaszewski
Chief Pentagon correspondent
NBC News
Updated: 7:14 p.m. ET March 2, 2004

With Tuesday’s attacks, Abu Musab Zarqawi, a Jordanian militant with ties to al-Qaida, is now blamed for more than 700 terrorist killings in Iraq.

But NBC News has learned that long before the war the Bush administration had several chances to wipe out his terrorist operation and perhaps kill Zarqawi himself — but never pulled the trigger.

In June 2002, U.S. officials say intelligence had revealed that Zarqawi and members of al-Qaida had set up a weapons lab at Kirma, in northern Iraq, producing deadly ricin and cyanide.

The Pentagon quickly drafted plans to attack the camp with cruise missiles and airstrikes and sent it to the White House, where, according to U.S. government sources, the plan was debated to death in the National Security Council.

“Here we had targets, we had opportunities, we had a country willing to support casualties, or risk casualties after 9/11 and we still didn’t do it,” said Michael O’Hanlon, military analyst with the Brookings Institution.

Four months later, intelligence showed Zarqawi was planning to use ricin in terrorist attacks in Europe.

The Pentagon drew up a second strike plan, and the White House again killed it. By then the administration had set its course for war with Iraq.

....The Pentagon drew up still another attack plan, and for the third time, the National Security Council killed it.

Military officials insist their case for attacking Zarqawi’s operation was airtight, >but the administration feared destroying the terrorist camp in Iraq could undercut its case for war against Saddam.

The United States did attack the camp at Kirma at the beginning of the war, but it was too late — Zarqawi and many of his followers were gone. “Here’s a case where they waited, they waited too long and now we’re suffering as a result inside Iraq,” Cressey added.

so who is lying in these two contradictory pieces? Gen. Delong in 2006 when he said that Saddam had to have approved the "poison camp" BECAUSE "nothing happens in Iraq without Saddam knowing about it, so we knew that was true. ...." and in his statement that "We almost took them out three months before the Iraq war started. We almost took that thing, but we were so concerned that the chemical cloud from there could devastate the region that we chose to take them by land rather than by smart weapons. "....or was MSNBC lying to us in Aprl 2003 when they reported: "The territory of northern Iraq where the traces of ricin were detected is not under the control of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein." .....and:

"MSNBC.com’s samples of ricin and botulinum, two deadly biological agents, were taken from the soles of a boot and a shoe recovered from the Sargat camp. The facility has been flattened by several Tomahawk cruise missiles, fired as part of the U.S. campaign against Ansar al-Islam.

The thick rubber boot twice tested positive for ricin, a toxin derived from castor beans. Ingesting a pinch of ricin, which causes shock and respiratory failure, can kill a human being within 72 hours. There is no cure.

A black running shoe, shredded by the U.S. bombing, tested positive for botulinum."

SO DELONG CONTRADiCTS MSNBC 3 YEARS AFTER iT'S REPORTiNG. WHO LIED ?

Quote:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ws/delong.html
From 2000-2003 Michael DeLong was deputy commander to Gen. Tommy Franks at Central Command (CENTCOM), where they oversaw U.S. operations in the war in Afghanistan and then the invasion of Iraq. In this interview, DeLong offers inside stories about those campaigns and CIA-Pentagon relations during the Afghan war, and explains why the invasion of Iraq was necessary. He also talks about why the DoD worked with Ahmad Chalabi and his own experience dealing with Doug Feith. This is an edited transcript of an interview conducted on Feb. 14, 2006.

......When are you first aware that Iraq and Saddam Hussein are on somebody's gun sights somewhere and that it may be job two?

Well, it wasn't lost on us when the secretary on Sept. 12 mentioned Iraq, Iran, Syria, so we knew it could come up at any time. We also knew we had thoroughly good intelligence that there was an Al Qaeda base on the Iraq-Iran border, that the Al Qaeda were coming through Iran into Iraq. We'll call it a dual-use base; in other words, chemicals that could be used for putting on your crops or chemicals that you could mix together and make a chemical weapon out of. We had on the ground intelligence that they were coming through there, and then some of them were meeting with some of the senior people in the Saddam administration, not with Saddam himself. We knew there was a tie to Saddam, to Iraq. And nothing happens in Iraq without Saddam knowing about it, so we knew that was true. ....

....Were you aware that by the 21st of September, say, Tenet and the CIA had already delivered to the president and to others that there was no Al Qaeda-Saddam connection?

Yeah, we didn't agree. Now, the only place we saw it was this one compound on the Iraq-Iran border, which was so troubling to us. We almost took them out three months before the Iraq war started. We almost took that thing, but we were so concerned that the chemical cloud from there could devastate the region that we chose to take them by land rather than by smart weapons. .......

Quote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3070394/
Positive test for terror toxins in Iraq
Evidence of ricin, botulinum at Islamic militants’ camp
By EXCLUSIVE By Preston Mendenhall
MSNBC

SARGAT, Iraq, April 4 - Preliminary tests conducted by MSNBC.com indicate that the deadly toxins ricin and botulinum were present on two items found at a camp in a remote mountain region of northern Iraq allegedly used as a terrorist training center by Islamic militants with ties to the al-Qaida terrorist network. The field tests used by MSNBC.com are only a first step in the evidentiary process and are typically followed by more precise laboratory testing that MSNBC.com has not conducted. U.S. intelligence agents were conducting their own tests in the same area and had not yet released their results, according to officials in northern Iraq.

MSNBC.COM CONDUCTED the tests over a two-day period at Sargat, an alleged terrorist training camp a mile from the Iraq-Iran border. MSNBC.com purchased the test kits commercially. The field tests, developed by Osborn Scientific Group in Lakeside, Ariz., are regarded by some experts as very effective and have been used by U.N. weapons inspectors and federal government agents around the Sept. 11, 2001, attack site in New York City.

The Sargat camp, set back in an isolated valley and surrounded by snow-capped peaks, was home to the radical Islamic militant group Ansar al-Islam, which counts among its some 700 followers scores of al-Qaida fighters.

In a Feb. 5 speech to the U.N. Security Council, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell showed a satellite photo of the Sargat camp and described Ansar al-Islam as “teaching its operatives how to produce ricin and other poisons.” U.S. officials have repeated the allegations in recent weeks.

In an operation timed to coincide with the war on Iraq, U.S. special operations forces have targeted Ansar al-Islam’s militants in northern Iraq. Hundreds of Islamists, including al-Qaida fighters who took refuge in northern Iraq after the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan, have been killed.

Although U.S. officials for months have leveled charges that the Ansar al-Islam and al-Qaida militants were producing poisons in northern Iraq, it wasn’t until this week that specialist U.S. teams were able to gain access to the Sargat camp to test for traces of biological and chemical weapons.

Experts believe the Islamic group was producing the substances in the camp. Both toxins can be created from everyday products and simple procedures.

TERRORISTS TEMPTED BY TOXINS

MSNBC.com’s samples of ricin and botulinum, two deadly biological agents, were taken from the soles of a boot and a shoe recovered from the Sargat camp. The facility has been flattened by several Tomahawk cruise missiles, fired as part of the U.S. campaign against Ansar al-Islam.

The thick rubber boot twice tested positive for ricin, a toxin derived from castor beans. Ingesting a pinch of ricin, which causes shock and respiratory failure, can kill a human being within 72 hours. There is no cure.

A black running shoe, shredded by the U.S. bombing, tested positive for botulinum. U.S. officials say terrorists have a particular interest in botulinum and ricin toxins, which may be delivered through release in food and water. Botulism, the illness resulting from botulinum ingestion, is a muscle-paralyzing disease that can cause a person to stop breathing and die, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control....

<h3>.....The territory of northern Iraq where the traces of ricin were detected is not under the control of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.</h3>

Baghdad admitted to U.N. weapons inspectors in the 1990s that it had successfully weaponized ricin, botulinum and anthrax. There is no immediate evidence that suggests Saddam’s regime provided the easily produced toxins to Ansar al-Islam or al-Qaida.

A test for anthrax at the Sargat camp gave a negative result.....

In recent days, specialist chemical-biological survey teams have collected samples from camps used by Islamic militants in northern Iraq. At least two teams visited the Sargat camp, taking similar rapid field tests and collecting samples to be sent to the United States for further analysis, according to U.S. special operations forces officers speaking on condition of anonymity in northern Iraq.

U.S. special operations forces officials said this week they had found recipes for ricin and other toxins at camps in northern Iraq.

In several visits to the Sargat camp, MSNBC.com uncovered material that could be used for terrorist purposes, including a list of chemical elements frequently found in explosives.

The list, written in Arabic, also includes notations on where chemicals such as nitric acid, which can be used to make components of the explosive Semtex, can commonly be found.

Seaver, I've presented devastating evidence on this thread that support my argument that Bush, Cheney, and Rice publicly stated lies....statements that they knew to be false or not confirmed as reliable, from 2002 to 2006, concerning the cooperation and complicity of Saddam and his government's relations with al Qaeda, and specifically, with al Zarqawi.

I've shown you in this post, examples of lies that Gen. Delong told on a PBS video tape in 2006.....concerning the "poison camp" that Cheney lied about on Rush's show, just the other day.....in Delong's case, he contradicted the April 3, 2003 news reporting that said that the "camp" was bombed with cruise missles, and that it was located in an area in Northern Iraq that Saddam's government did not control....either via air or ground access.

Delong said that the camp could not be bombed, and that Saddam was responsible for the camp...three full years after the news reporting to the contrary.....

Seaver....you're calling Lt. Watada a coward, and your posting that the military is "very conservative", scares the sh*t out of me. "Conservatives" do not unquestioningly.....every other officer in the military, besides Watada, participate in illegal, aggressive war, and they do not lie like Gen. Delong, and Bush, Rice, and Cheney have lied. Conservatives think for themselves, they tell the truth, they question illegal orders, and they refues to follow the commands of a president when he decides to commit the military to an illegal war of aggression....or....as in Watada's case....they refuse as soon as they study the situation and come to a conclusion that the orders they are given may be illegal.