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Originally Posted by scout
This thread has really made me think about a lot of things the past few days. I've come to the conclusion that every single Democrat that voted for Gore or Kerry in the primaries are responsible for the past 6+ years. Who knows what would have happened if said Democrats had nominated someone that wasn't so far left. In a nutshell it's not much of a choice when you have to decide between inconveniencing a few extremist Muslims with a military court or face a full frontal assualt on the Second Amendment.
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Please scout, consider where we have come from, and how we are slipping away from possessing any credibility or authority, in the eyes of the rest of the world, and in the eyes of a growing number of Americans. How do you prevent crimes against treaties and the US constitution, if you are carrying them out, or supporting authorities who do, even by your silence in the face of it happening?
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".... Then one day they came and they took me
And I could say nothing because I was as guilty as they were
For not speaking out and saying that all men have a right to freedom
On any land
I was as guilty of genocide
As you
All of you
For you know when a man is free
And when to set him free from his slavery
So I charge you all with genocide
The same as I
One of the 18 million dead Jews
18 million dead people......"
http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/niem.htm
....... We preferred to keep silent. We are certainly not without guilt/fault, and I ask myself again and again, what would have happened, if in the year 1933 or 1934 - there must have been a possibility - 14,000 Protestant pastors and all Protestant communities in Germany had defended the truth until their deaths? If we had said back then, it is not right when Hermann Göring simply puts 100,000 Communists in the concentration camps, in order to let them die. I can imagine that perhaps 30,000 to 40,000 Protestant Christians would have had their heads cut off, but I can also imagine that we would have rescued 30-40,000 million [sic] people, because that is what it is costing us now.....
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....AND THE FOLLOWING IS the standard THAT WE ONCE HELD A PEOPLE OF ANOTHER NATION TO...A PEOPLE, WHO, UNLIKE US...COULD BE EXECUTED FOR THE SLIGHTEST PROTEST, PROVOCATION, OR INTERFERENCE WITH THE AUTHORITY THAT BRUTALLY DICTATED TO THEM. Still....we held them to a "standard" that almost none of you, even see your own silence as a problem, in a nation where there is still some opportunity to take responsibility, and object loudly to what is happening....to the war crimes, crimes against humanity, and crimes against the US constitution, that you have witnessed being committed by our elected leaders. WERE WWII US Military commanders wrong to hold ordinary Germans accountable, or are too many of us, wrong now....not even able to admit that they have some responsibility for illegal aggressive war in Iraq, and possibly in Afghanistan, and for the treary violations that have resulted in "rendition" by the CIA, the creation and internments in Guantanamo prison, the oppression in the Patriot Acts, and by the treatment of Jose Padilla by the US doj. The latest offenses to the US contitution are described in the thread OP, and suspension of habeus corpus and breaking of provisions in international treaties, are among the crimes committed agains the US people, and the world!
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http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Buchen...iberation.html
"We didn't know." This was what the German civilian population would say over and over again about the concentration camps in the coming months. The American army was determined that the ordinary German people should see the depths of depravity to which their Nazis leaders had sunk. American soldiers were ordered to go down to Weimar and bring back German citizens to bear witness to the Nazi atrocities in the camp. General Patton wrote that the number of Weimar citizens who were forced to see the camp was 1,500, although other accounts say it was 2,000.
<center><img src="http://www.scrapbookpages.com/EasternGermany/Buchenwald/WeimarResidents.jpg"></center>
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http://www.aish.com/holocaust/issues...o_Neunburg.asp
There is no gentle way to tell the story of what happened during World War II in this small Bavarian town.
....."What happened is not just something that we should not forget," said Neunburg's mayor, Wolfgang Bayerl. "It is something we cannot forget."
The soldiers forced the townspeople to dig up the bodies, then to mourn the murdered men and bury them with some measure of dignity.
That is mostly because of the actions of the U.S. soldiers who arrived in town and discovered the 161 bodies dumped like trash in shallow graves on a hill. Despite the scale of killing in World War II, the soldiers would not permit 161 murdered men to be trivialized.
The soldiers forced the townspeople -- all of the 2,500 except children under 5 and the very old -- to dig up the bodies, then to mourn the murdered men and bury them with some measure of dignity.........
<center><img src="http://www.aish.com/graphics/articles/RoadNeunburg1.jpg"></center>
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Our grandfathers in the US military, forced Germans living in a town that had nothing directly to do with the atrocities committed there by nazi ss troops moving concentration camp prisoners through that town, to go into the woods and fields and build coffins with their hands, dig up dead victims, place them in the coffins, and carry them through their town, mourning their deaths.
Are the grandchildren today....of those WWII soldiers, more like them, more like ordinary Iraqis or like the young Australian in the thread OP, who has been held at Guantanamo for the past five years.....or more like the Germans who kept saying that "they didn't know"? Are we even as sound in our own integrity and belief systems, in the face of what our leaders have been doing in Iraq, and in interpretation of treaties that our past leaders have ratified and signed, as German civilians living under the iron grip of a brutal dictator, when we react as if we have no responsibility, let alone an admitted obligation to recognize, question, and object to official criminality?