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Originally Posted by willravel
Information, including confessions, given under extreme duress is unreliable. I've said it before and I'll say it again: torture will not provide reliable intelligence.
According to the United Nations Convention Against Torture: "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity." It is was and is strictly forbidden because the US was one of the 142 nations to have signed the convention.
Additionally, the label of 'unlawful combatants' is not recognized unless the person has been given a tribunal to determine their nature. Without the tribunal, the combatants are POWs and are covered by the Geneva Conventions (which means they cannot be tortured).
Finally, any psychologist or psychiatrist with any knowledge of torture can tell you that it's useless in the pursuit of reliable information. The idea that some idiots are trying to make information from torture admissible in court goes to show just how fucking stupid and unreasonable the people in power really are. I'd like to see them tortured and made to say things that weren't true, just so they could have first hand knowledge of just how wrong what they are doing really is. It's a damned shame that people actually vote for people like Bush.
If you voted for Bush, you're responsible for torture. Great job.
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I'm posting the following response to this thread's OP, and to will's comments, because, just as 74 year old Joan MacIntyre's 41 arrests for protesting since 2003 are.....posting the following is the "reasonable" thing to do, in reaction to Mr. Bush's crimes against the constitution. What is not reasonable, or, to my mind....even tolerable, is not posting and voicing....earnestly, and often, objections to the offenses of Mr. Bush and his regime.....objections like will's, above, and what follows, from me:
I'm not a lawyer, but I did the best that I could....given my limitations, to cite the violations of US and international law, that Mr. Bush has committed by his willful acts against his sworn oath of office:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...0&postcount=21
....and as willravel said at the end of his post....it is a "damned shame", and...it is much more than that, IMO. I'm in my third year here, of making a thorough and precise effort to inform you that, if you have supported Mr. Bush and his regime, you have supported a war criminal, reasonably accused of crimes against the people of the United States and it's constitution, and of crimes against humanity. I've spelled it out for you, over and over, and....even if you've covered your eyes, at every opportunity to see, you've been given that opportunity, again and again.
So, if you have or do support Mr. Bush and his actions, or even if you have observed, without objecting to what he has done, said, ordered...... you are complicit in his crimes. His crimes, and your complicity, are too consequential to allow for consideration of ways to seek a "common ground", a "middle way".
You cannot say, you "didn't know", you had to make a choice to refuse to know.
Quote:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...G3ROR95I45.DTL
....."The only thing this government needs is for the people to be silent and then they can do whatever they want," said Joan MacIntyre, a 74-year-old great-grandmother from Oakland. "As long as the government keeps doing what it's doing, I'll be out in the streets."
MacIntyre, like many who attended today's events, was no stranger to anti-war protests. She has marched in numerous rallies since the Iraq war started in March 2003 and on Monday was arrested during a San Francisco protest on Market Street. It was her 41st arrest, she boasted proudly.
"At least I can hold my head up and say that I tried," she said. ......
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What about you....or you.....can you "hold your head up and say that you "tried"? If you cannot, you OWN this, and I cannot see you as a fellow countryman....of mine.....
Strong words? Unreasonable.....how dare you defend Bush....defend what has happened on Guantanamo, and to our constitution, and to our country, and to our troops, and to the people of Iraq....how dare you silently accept what Bush has done...?