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Old 03-10-2007, 09:37 AM   #34 (permalink)
DaveOrion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeMissile
I ask questions to better undrerstand your position. That's part of communication. I can't help if they "get under your skin."

You have a very simplistic view of the world. Let me tell you a story. Where I am, I'm surprisingly famous for what I'm about to tell you...

I was in a cafe called the Enchanted Forrest. It was fairly far away from campus but it had sofas and was run by a bunch of raver kids. I was drinking tea and studying calculus when a pair of attractive girls sat beside me. They struck up a conversation by asking me if I were studying for a test. Sadly, I had to admit to them that I had no test coming up and I was just studying for fun because I found my course so fascinating. In particular, I was trying to prove the *three hard problems without the help of the text book (I still needed the least upper bound axiom). Anyway, they asked me why I liked math so much. I told them that I thought it was "so expressive..." They thought that was a weird description of math so I felt obligated to show them how expressive mathematics is. I continued to prove to them that √2 is irrational, as an example of the expressive power of mathematics. That was more than ten years ago. To this day, stories of a guy who picked up using the proof of the irrationality of √2 still circulate campus. Sadly, my name is no where in the story. I'm just referred to as "they guy who..."

* The three hard problems in calculus are the intermediate value theorem, extreme value theorem and mean value theorem.

What's the point of this story? I like stories...
The point of the story is that science and mathematics require a great deal of imagination and creativity to do. They are expressions of ideas, just like any prose, poem, or song, with the caveat that they must conform to reality. It is every bit as creative as any of the arts...

I didn't think that you repeatedly read the Bible, in particular. I was referring to orthodox theology. You know, "bible study," rather than academic theology, where you study religion in an historical context. I was rebutting your claim that religion takes more imagination than science...

If you are honest when you say that the "the most profound questions" "would be different for all of us" then how can you say that "science can't answer the most profound questions?" Perhaps, for some of us, it can!

You do realize that my question was not directed at you, right? Not that there's anything wrong with that, I just wanted to make sure you weren't confused...

I had almost the opposite reaction. I've lead a depressingly painful life that would surely drive most people in my position to suicide. However, it all turned around when I was finally able to attend university to study mathematics. After giving myself to rationality, I was finally able to achieve happiness.

This is not a logical argument, mostly because I was a reasonable person long before university and religion had nothing to do with the problems of my life. The point of my story is that religion needn't necessarily be the solution to tragedy. There are many ways to find strength. Personally, I think the most powerful way to do this is to not kill yourself...

Well, in all fairness, you did say this:...which suggests that you'd rather believe what's comforting than what's true. Incidentally, this is a popular sentiment among theists...

You also speak of the Torah as if it weren't part of the Old Testement. What's the distinction for you?
Why would an atheist want to understand something they dont believe in??? They wouldnt and dont. They only want to ridicule and scorn the believer, because to them its childish and foolish to believe in God. I will say that some atheists attempt to disguise their ridicule with scientific jargon and analytical double talk. Others make no attempt to hide their disgust for the believer with references to God as the 'flying spagetti monster'. Seaver may want to play your game of 20 questions, but the atheists will never be satisfied with his answers and this game becomes endless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
The Torah is the Old Testament. The Bible is the New Testament.

Yes, it is a chronological story line, the Bible expands on the Torah. However, if you take the time to read it, God is completely different in the New Testament. In the new God is concerned with forgiveness and loving thy neighbor. In the Old he's mostly fire and brimstone. The VAST majority of attacks people have on Christianity actually come from the Old Testament. Homosexuality, slavery, the killing for eating shrimp, etc. are all aspects and duties of the Old Testament. No where do you see Jesus calling for anyone to be stoned.
Actually the Torah, sometimes refered to as the Book of Moses, is the first 5 books of the old testament. But I do agree with your interpretation of the Old and New Testaments. The 'new covenant' is written in the heart and not on paper, so that the individual wants to be righteous for righteousness sake, not because of a set of laws which attempt to dictate obediance to God.
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Last edited by DaveOrion; 03-10-2007 at 10:02 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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