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Originally Posted by KnifeMissile
Okay, I think I see what you're thinking, here. I still think it's a difficult thing to do. For instance, you obviously want to avoid pejoratives but suppose you say that their religion is a delusion. A lot of people are going to take offense to that. I'm not saying they're delusional and the word is not an insult. However, there's no way to get around the implication that they're delusional and many will take it as an offense, despite that I honestly think they've fooled themselves into believing something that makes little sense. I can tell you that I don't know what your stance on this is going to be...
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I've never met the religious person who has fooled himself into believing in god. If indeed they are fooled (for remember, we cannot prove that god does not exist and therefore it is possible, however unlikely you and I believe it to be, that they are right) then they have been fooled by others. No one wakes up one day never having read or heard of the bible, never having been to church, never having been told about religion by anyone, and suddenly comes up with Christianity again all by himself.
If you use phrases like delusional, and fooled yourself, and ridiculous, you aren't going to convince very many people. State your case. I don't believe in god and here's why. THAT might get them thinking and questioning, but if you come straight out and insult them (because insulting their religion with pejoratives as has been done many times in this thread IS insulting them - that's how deeply intertwined their faith is with their view of themselves) then you won't accomplish anything except possibly to piss them off. Pissed off people are not going to be in the right frame of mind to question themselves or their beliefs at all.
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Why can't "getting around to questioning that belief" start now?
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It can - but if they're busy concentrating on how upset they are over what a jerk you've been to them, they're not going to get around to it any time soon.
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My atheist friends in late high school would ridicule religion with arguments that I could not deny. Despite this, it took me a while to admit to myself that I don't believe.
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And yet you seem to profess a lack of understanding over how religious people can possibly not be questioning their religion.
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Would it surprise you to learn that if you can show me how my belief in gravity was stupid and present a better theory to me then I would throw out my belief in gravity in a heartbeat.
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Not at all - but it would surprise me if I hurled insults at you and your belief and your first response was "holy crap you're right! How did I not see it!"
Plus keep in mind that you do not love gravity. Religious people actually LOVE god and Jesus - whether they exist or not. You're certainly not going to overcome their notions by insulting someone they love.
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Faith is the ability to believe what you want despite reality.
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I disagree. You have to realize that religion explains reality. If religion is made up then whoever made it up was a psychological master. Not only did they come up with the whole god thing, but they anticipated people like you coming along and built in the "god is testing you" bit. See "reality" that conflicts with your belief? No problem, it's a test. Can you pass it? You and I may not agree with this concept (after all if god is all knowing he should not have to test anything - you only test that which you are unsure of. I do not wake up and cower in bed gingerly testing the environment to insure that when the covers come off I won't float away because gravity doesn't exist. I know it does) however just because someone hasn't thought of this or doesn't agree with it does not necessarily mean they are stupid or delusional.
Ben, actually
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Besides, do you see no difference between saying the belief in religion is "stupid" and saying religious people are stupid?
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What I see doesn't matter. It's what they see that does. Religion is not just something they read about and maybe accept as truth like you would a science book or a political essay. Religion is part of them. Their entire being is deeply intertwined with religion. Insult religion, and you insult them.
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How can I respond to this? You're really hung up on this whole "proof" thing. Let me tell you, I don't need "proof." Proof is too high a burden. Just give me something even vaguely reasonable and I will believe. However, there isn't even that yet people still continue to believe...
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What is unreasonable to one man is totally reasonable to the next.
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They're not both right so that's a fine example of a great number of people who believe something that's "clearly" false. How is this possible? Apply it to yourself and you will know!
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Depends on who you talk to. The hindus, first off, believe that there are many paths to paradise, and all of them are correct. Others believe that they are fortunate in being exposed to the one true religion. Does it make sense? No, not really, not to us anyway - but the thing to realize is that it makes sense to them, and it really doesn't hurt YOU if they believe in god as long as they don't try to push their beliefs intrusively onto your life.
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I've brought this up, before. I think I called it "false association." What does beauty have to do with God? That doesn't follow. Can't a garden be beautiful without there being fairies at the bottom of it, too?
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Of course it's false association, but if you're looking for evidence to support your claim you might not realize it is.
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I agree that it is a human trait. However, what is it when someone points out that you are doing exactly this and suggests how you may desist this behaviour and you metaphorically stick your head in the sand and continue the way you were?
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If that someone has politely brought up arguments and you flat out refuse to even consider their point, then yes, that's your fault. If however, that person has insulted you and what you believe in then it is psychologically understandable that you would not consider what they had to say. I don't pay attention to jerks either. I would not expect it of religious people.
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Don't "slipery slope" me. Even in our society, if the worst thing you ever do is insult someone with words, that's not too bad.
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No, in the grand scheme of things it's not. But if you want a given result, and a surefire way to not get to that given result is to insult someone, is it really smart to insult them? Thinking critically, I'd have to say no.
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Okay, so I'm beginning to see that you make no distinction between insulting one's religion and insulting them...
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That's right - because there is no distinction. Religion is a large part of who many people are.
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you are particularly sensitive to such "insults." Everyone else seem to feel free to debate the issue.
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Shanifaye and I don't agree on a whole lot throughout the forum, but she thanked me for my initial post telling Yakk off. That tells me he annoyed at least one person in here.
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Again, no one's behaviour has degenerated to calling anyone here an idiot. All he wants to do is get people thinking. Despite his apparent attitude, he strikes me as optimistic...
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If you are called a fool for something that not only you believe in but that is a core aspect of who you are, then it is completely predictable that you will not be thinking about the truth of that aspect. You'll be too busy thinking about what a jerk this guy is.
It's disingenuous to run around insulting people and then expecting those insults to make them change their entire outlook on existence. That, not belief in religion, is what is ridiculous here.