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Originally Posted by filtherton
Is this whole wolf thing just a way for you to say that you think that ethics don't necessarily need to be based on religious belief? If that's what you think, i agree with you. That being said, behaving ethically implies a certain amount of awareness on behalf of the actor, right? Or do you think plants are ethical too?
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I was explaining the differnce between ethics and altruism. Altruism is based in an intelectual decision without outside influence to do the right thing. I think that ethics can exist outside of what we would call intelligence.
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Originally Posted by filtherton
That's not what i was saying at all. What i was trying to point out by way of the timothy mcveigh example is that you aren't always in a position to know what will help the pack. It is overly naive to think that helping an individual inevitably helps the pack.
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It's what tens of thousands of years has put into our DNA. We havn't evolved inate stuff to deal with overpopulation yet. Once we have, then heping others altruistically may be phased out. Also, what percentage of the population is like the Oklahoma City bomber? less than .00001%, I'd guess. That would make it safe to help people without reasonably being concerned that he or she was going to go blow up a building.
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Originally Posted by filtherton
And this makes you different from someone who is religious how(try not to generalize, it's unbecoming of one so committed to scientific accuracy)?
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My motivation isn't fear. My motivation is living up to a social standard I've set for myself, and has no reprocussions if I don't do it besides being dissapointed in myself. I'd say being dissapointed in myself is much different than the threat of eternal damnation.
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Originally Posted by filtherton
Do you think that eating defenseless farm animals is moral? I don't know, i've not had firsthand knowledge of the thought processes of wolves. Neither have you, for that matter. I bet the dog whisperer could tell us.
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Animal social studies are a bit more advanced that you appear to be aware, but for the sake of the conversation let's move away from wolves. Eating to survive is necessary, therefore we do so. Slaughtering the animal in a way that is cruel to the animal is still considered wrong (and it's why I refuse to eat a lot of stuff like McDonalds). Most hunting animals kill as quikcly as possible. In our own hunter gatherer days, we would do the same. Spear to the throat, head or heart.
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Originally Posted by filtherton
Right, because you hold advanced degrees and solid understandings of all of the different scientific theories which you embrace. I don't know if you're a man of scientific training, but let me tell you that there is a whole neighborhood in the ghetto of intellectual laziness for people who sing the praises of science they don't understand.
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I don't require a degree in theology to know what's real and what isn't. My degree is in psychology, but I am also well trained in biology and political science. Tell you what, pick apart my arguments and then call me intelectually lazy. Don't do it beforehand.
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Originally Posted by filtherton
I suppose the implication in what you said is that you haven't copped out because you've done the intellectual work to figure out how things really work. If that's really what you mean than you're just as lazy as those whom you criticize.
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What? Stop contradicting yourself. You just said people who don't do the intelectual legwork are intelectually lazy, and now you're aying that even though I have done the learning I'm still lazy? Make up your mind.
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Originally Posted by filtherton
But you're right, just because everybody is guilty of the same crime, being illogical, doesn't mean that being illogical is okay. It does, however, mean that the act of singling out criticism for a specific group based on the fact that said group is illogical is a tad bit hypocritical.
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I wouldn't care if it wasn't detrimental to the evolution of the species. I will readily admit that I'm not perfect. I make mistakes like everyone else, but I do try to fix my mistakes once I've realized them. I don't critisize people for pointing out my mistakes. I'd rather be proven wrong than think I'm right and be wrong.
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Originally Posted by filtherton
I would think you odd, yes. But i think libertarians are odd, too. That doesn't mean i go on talk shows and write books and come up with overly broad contrivances as to why all libertarians are dumb.
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If you think that they are detrimental to society, then it's your responsibility to try and reason with them. If you don't think they're detrimental to society, then the comparison isn't apt.
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Originally Posted by filtherton
Faith and reason aren't mutually exclusive.
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In my mind they are and that's the whole idea.
Most of the websites listed under your google search are for churches or religious organzations. Can you actually find anything in particular?
BTW, I still respect the shit out of you. A disagreement about the nature of religion isn't going to change that. I just hope that's clear.