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Originally Posted by filtherton
I know why you would defer to the wisdom of wolves, i just think that as far as sociological models go, it's overly simplistic in the context of human societies.
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Again, I was using it to explain how humaity was before religion. That was thousands of years ago. It may have even been before homo sapiens. It's possible that it hasn't been since cro magnons that we've been free of religion. Before we were agrarian, we were hunter/gatherers, which leads to pack-like interactions.
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Originally Posted by filtherton
You're missing the bigger picture. If you help someone who is detrimental to the pack you are actually not helping the pack. For an extreme example, think of the hypothetical good samaritan helping timothy mcveigh change the tire on his truck just outside of oklahoma city.
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Just because someone is in need means they are detrimental to the pack? You'd expect me to kill someone with a flat tire? No, the whole of the pack benifits from each individual's contribution. When a contribution ceases, the pack becomes weaker. Thus, in order to remain a strong pack, the whole must not only be concerned with the well being of the whole pack, but also the individual.
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Originally Posted by filtherton
Helping someone because you think a wolf would isn't "real" altruism.
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No the real altruism is in that while my kindness comes from an inate place, I make a conscious decision to stop and actually do it. I recognize that it probably won't help me in any way other than to make me feel good about myself, but it's the right thing to do. I can explain where right and wrong come from, but an ability we have is to choose to do right or wrong. I try to choose right. Not because of fear of hell, but because I answer to myself.
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Originally Posted by filtherton
No, it just doesn't make sense to me. How is the behavior of wolves an example of ethics?
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"Ethics" is a system of moral princeples, no? Would you say that a pack stopping to help a wounded pack member is moral? Would you say that allowing each pack member to eat the food that was only brought in by one pack member is moral?
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Originally Posted by filtherton
It's illogical, so what? Most of the things that most people to most of the time involve an implicit absence of logic. Illogical doesn't equate to cop out. If you examine the underlying assumptions on which you base all your beliefs, at some point you will find something that is illogical.
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Just because people do illeogical things doesn't mean it's right. The cop out is not doing the intellectual work to figure out how thing really work. T
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Originally Posted by filtherton
If you told me zeus exists, i wouldn't convert, but i wouldn't automatically presume you to be intellectually lazy. It would depend on how open minded you were.
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Would you think I was off my rocker? Seriously, please think about this. If I tried to be a "fisher of men" and was a diciple of Zeus, wouldn't you think there was something wrong with me? Greek mythos has been dead for hundreds of years. Try, for a second, to disregard the detrimental effect an honest answer would have on your argument and really ask yourself.
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Originally Posted by filtherton
What if you had personal experiences which to you reinforced the notion that there is a god? There are plenty of people who have been allowed to question god and still manage to retain their faith.
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What kind of personal experience? Like a delusion about seeing an angel? Or maybe something coincedental happens and I think it's a mericle? Or do you just mean that I am able to choose faith over reason?
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Originally Posted by filtherton
Let me correct that for you. The church, and thus religion, sometimes hinder development. Sometimes they are a catalyst for development, and sometimes they don't to much either way.
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So when was the church a catalyst for development? I'm trying to think of a time, but I'm coming up with a blank.