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Originally Posted by Greg700
Willravel: Actually, Military enlistments are rarely for more than 4 years and are often for only 2. I can guarantee that everybody in the army today knew about the war when they signed up (or reenlisted).
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That's a good point, but enlistment is down and people are being required to extend their tours now more than ever.
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Originally Posted by Greg700
Also, an awareness that we don't belong in Iraq is very different entirely from an opinion that we shouldn't be fighting the war or that we are not needed. Of course we don't belong in the middle east. But an asshat of a dictator necessitated our return.
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That actually just reminded me of a discussion I had about this with a military friend back in 2003. He said that even though it was probably wrong to invade Iraq, it wasn't illegal and he had to follow orders. He gave me the "Saddam must be stopped" line. I'm afraid it's not that simple.
I'm going to summerize my answer as I talked at him for like 3 hours. When you take the oath to join the military, you swear to obey lawful orders, yes? And you can't obey unlawful orders, yes? 'Members of the military have an obligation to disobey unlawful orders.' The idea was coined most prominantly at the Nuremberg trials, when the "I was just following orders" defence was finally and totally forbidden. So, if I can prove the invasion of Iraq is illegal, then you have a legal obligation to refuse the order?
The United States Constitution makes treaties that are signed by the government equivalent to the "law of the land" itself, Article VI, para. 2. The Nuremberg Principles, which define as a crime against peace, "planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements, or assurances, or participation in a common plan or conspiracy for accomplishment of any of the forgoing." specifically names a war of aggression as a crime. Also, under the UN charter, which the US has signed in good faith, there are only two circumstances in which the use of force is allowed: in collective or individual self-defence against and actual or imminent armed attack, or when the Security Council has allowed the use of force to maintain or restore international peace and security. Neither of the circumstances existed in 2003, therefore the action of invading was unlawful. Read Article 51 of the UN Charter for yourself. It's really cut and dry. While Bush used the language in 2003 of a "preemptive" strike, the reality of the situation is better described as a preventive strike. There was no claim made or evidence produced before the war to prove that Iraq was supplying WMDs to terrorists or that they even possesed them. The "regime change" excuse used by the administration is specifically and clearly barred under Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, which forbids "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state." Even former House Majority Leader, and Republican Dick Armey said that an unprovoked attack against Iraq would violate international law.
As you are, judging by your post, an honorable and loyal military officer, isn't it possible that it's your duty to refuse an illegal order?
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Originally Posted by Greg700
Whether you agree with the war or not, you should realize that the original war has been won...we kicked the crap out of saddam hussein, his army, and the bath party. We could have pulled out and left Iraq in ruins.
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We could have continued to work with the UN. Obviously the inspectors and sanctions were a success, as he had no weapons of mass destruction.
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Originally Posted by Greg700
But that wouldn't be very nice. So we are trying to help get Iraq back up and running again. But since we displaced the ruling Sunni minority (basically like apartheid) and for the first time installed a predominately Shia government in the arab league of nations we are facing a lot of opposition from the Sunni radicals in Iraq who had it good living under Saddam and extorting people.
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That is, of course, the problem. We should have seen an insurgency coming and we should have done the entire thing differently. Even if the war weren't illegal, the war was waged wrong. We should ahve worked with members of both parties together in order to remove Saddam from power. The idea is to empower both sects and allow them to see that they can work together for a common goal. We didn't do that. We dropped bombs on crowded cities and there was a great deal of collateral damage. To them, this was more of the same. More American bombs killing civilians while targeting political figures. That's a big part of why we're hated over there. We should have learned from Korea that we need to understand a potential enemy before entering into a potential conflict situation. The North Koreans to this day think that the US was trying to invade, not to protect the South. Watch Fog of War, as it sheds amazing light on that.
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Originally Posted by Greg700
We have made some committments in that part of the world that require us to either 1: finish the job or 2: leave and betray all the people who stood up and have been working with the US to get their country up and running again...they will most likely be slaughtered if we leave. Not to mention Kuwait (one of our allies) will probably get taken over (again) during the resulting civil war. Democracy in the middle east is considered a threat by many neighboring countries (*Cough* *Iran* *Cough*) and they are actively working to undermine US interests as well. To pull out now is to simply hand them (and all others working against the US) the ball game.
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What if we're just making it worse? We obviously don't have the manpower to stop the civil war, and our soldiers are targets out there. The real question to ask is: are we making it better or worse? I don't have an answer for that, and I doubt there are more than a hanful of military commanders on the ground who could answer that. The president can't answer it. Stephen Colbert can't answer it.
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Originally Posted by Greg700
Even if you were against the war you shouldn't be against reconstruction and the honoring of our national committments. Could you sleep at night if you had all our troops pull out only to have all former Interpreters, Interim Government members, Iraqi Police, and all their families tortured and killed? Not to mention the bloodbath that ensue from the civil war. What would you do when Kuwait gets sacked, again?
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What if they get sacked again while we're there? Who's to say we're preventing that?
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Originally Posted by powerclown
willravel, you are apparently invested in seeing the whole thing as simply a hostile invasion with malicious, underlying intentions. I do not see it as such. Agree to disagree...as usual, eh?
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I can agree to disagree with you on the intent, but I'd really apprecaite it if you were to reevaluate your thoughts on the connections between Iraq and 9/11. I think that if you were to really step back and look at this thing, you'll see that the only connection between 9/11 and Iraq was in the words of our president.