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Originally Posted by dksuddeth
Then, by your 'answer', roachboy is doing nothing more than trying to hide the fact that all of the people would pay for socialized medicine by declaring that it's a red herring perpetrated by conservatives, would you agree?
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I'm not commenting on what roachboy wrote. I'm commenting on what YOU wrote. Quit trying to distract people from that.
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There is absolutely no contradiction in my statement. I love the IT field, but I'm not going to design, engineer, manufacture, and maintain an enterprise network for the same pay that I'd get working at a fast food restaraunt, just like a neuro surgeon is not going to work hard to be the best when he's going to get paid the same as a general health practitioner.
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Unless he genuinely WANTS to be a neurosurgeon. Besides, in the current system unless you're rich it doesn't matter how good the best neurosurgeon is. You can't afford him anyway, so it doesn't have any effect on you. I'd rather have GOOD medical care that I can actually use rather than GREAT medical care that I can't possibly afford.
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Have you asked for that kind of pay?
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No. I'm not an idiot.
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Would you get it if you did?
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Nope.
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I'm guessing that you'd be laughed out of the building by asking for it and expecting to recieve it
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Pretty much, yep.
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Because your choice of profession is not worth that much to the world market.
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And yet, I do it anyway because I love the work. Thanks for proving my point for me.
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If you're calling me one of 'the haves', guess again. I'm a 'have not',
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You'll pardon me if I have trouble believing that, since a "have not" with any brains will want to have access to medical care.
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but having had a family member that was a doctor, owned her own medical practice, and related dozens of stories about how the medical industry is ruled over by the insurance industry through government regulatory boards,
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Gee that's not a biased source at all is it! And if you talk to the farmers they'll complain about only clearing $80,000 before subsidies kick in. Cry me a river.
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i've learned enough to know that no matter how you decide to scale taxes or redistribute wealth to 'equalize' society, you'll screw it up.
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Well if you think having 5% of the country controlling 95% of the wealth while a much larger percentage of the country can't get drugs to cure their deadly diseases is better than the socialized medicine alternative, you need to relearn a few things.
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I'm not surprised that you can say all of this with, what I assume to be, a straight face and be willfully ignorant of just how substandard the medical care is going to be for all of the people that have to participate in this.
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Yeah, because Canadians are just dying in droves. DROVES I tell ya! because their medical care system is so bad. (so you don't have to assume, this was said with a sarcastic face)
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You know of ONE person like that, yet you expect all of humanity to be like that?
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I gave you ONE example of many and you assume I only know ONE? Who's deluded? Actually go take a look at everyone in the TV profession. With the exception of some anchors, a few reporters, and the general managers/news directors/salespeople, they're ALL making crap money. Every one of them.
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I want to be the best network engineer out there, but I expect to get paid well for the work that I do, otherwise there is no incentive for me to be the best. I love what I do, but i'm not going to do it for free and I suspect that YOU would'nt either.
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Of course not. I have to eat and pay rent. But there are LOTS of jobs out there that I'm very qualified for that I could instantly triple (or more) my salary while getting all holidays and weekends off, guaranteed, and double my current vacation (at least). But I don't take them because I love what I do now. Money is not the only motivating factor.
Oh and BTW if you are a network engineer, and you're not incompetent at it, and you weren't stupid in the salary negotiation process, you are definitely NOT a "have not."
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What is it about personal accountability that you're not getting? If a doctor sucks ass and hurts or kills a patient, why bail his ass out with a malpractice settlement?
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Do you have any idea how hard it is to collect anything on a malpractice suit? Despite what Bush brainwashes you with, doctors have the advantage as far as malpractice goes.
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Make the sorry assed individual pay for his mistake with his OWN personal pocketbook.
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wow that's great. Doctor cuts off the wrong leg but he transfers his assets to his kid's trust fund before the lawsuit. I walk away with a few thousand and no legs for the rest of my life. Great plan.
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If you do THAT, you'll end up with people who TRULY care about their patients
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No, you'll get the few who are crazy enough to risk personal financial ruin in order to be a doctor.
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and won't be making medical decisions based on the insurance industries bottom line.
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Like hell you will. Malpractice insurance and health insurance are two different things. Read up on them, then get back to me.
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As for your not having to work very hard line, I suggest you become a doctor before you belittle the efforts of one.
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I'm not belittling the efforts of any specific doctors. But there are doctors who frankly do not work very hard. Period.
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So what you're really saying is that you feel the system is unfair because the lower salary people work harder, but get paid less, right?
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No I'm saying we already have a healthcare shortage despite this wonderful system of capitalistic medicine that you so love.
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Instead of ruining the field by 'socializing' it, deregulate it.
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Yeah, that worked just GREAT for the airlines didn't it. Or haven't you been reading about the bankruptcies? And that's not even counting the maintenance issues. I know it sounds like fun to deregulate medicine. Mexico did that too, and you'll notice that we don't exactly hold their medical profession in high esteem. Deregulate it and the nurses will still be paid like crap, but they'll probably work even more than they do now.
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Remove the bureaucracy and watch it flourish. Also, nobody is making these people work as a nurse, just like nobody is making me work as an IT pro, or you as a journalist. If you're not making the money you think you should, change the way you do your job, or change your job.
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Again with the money-as-prime-motivator theory. Some people are willing to sacrifice money in order to do what they love. I know you don't understand that since you're lucky enough that what you love also involves lots of money, but it is a fact.
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nobody is going to lower the standards? that would be funny if you weren't serious about it. you need to pull your head out of the sand and see the truth of how the government will fulfill it's 'obligations'. To get more doctors, they will lessen the standards, they will not raise salaries, unless they raise everyones taxes to pay for it.
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What standards are you suggesting they will lower? You're acting like they'll let a mechanic become a doctor overnight because he's good with his hands. I'm interested to see what you really think here.
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The 'residency' system could use some changes, I agree, but how are you going to do that without more bodies?
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Socialize healthcare. Then poor people won't HAVE to go to the ER for basic medical care, it'll ease the burden on the public hospitals, and they can redistribute their residents.
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As an example of how this works, look at the technical support industry. They pay crap, lose good people because they won't raise pay rates, so they lower the standards and hire bodies just to answer the phones and give standard answers from FAQ databases. Lower standards.
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Gee, that's not socialized or bureaucratically regulated. According to your previous arguments it should be absolutely thriving by now!
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you are much smarter than this. WHY was the interstate program made? To facilitate faster and more direct distribution for products and services and allow for easier evacuations for civil defense and military usage in the event of nuclear wars or attacks. How well does this work?
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Pretty damn well overall. Go drive around Africa some time to see a public road system that's truly broken.
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I see traffic jams every single day here in dallas and fort worth and thats without national emergencies.
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That's not government, that's idiot people who won't take public transportation. Go to D.C. Traffic might be a nightmare, but the metro system lets you get anywhere in the city very quickly. And btw, the metro is in fact run by the government.
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Look at the hurricane rita evacuations. Government does not run ANYTHING well, never has, never will.
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Well hell, let's just get rid of it. Anarchy for all!
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It's not 'conservative' crap, it's reality.
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No, it isn't. It's you twisting facts to suit your own desires, which is to further enrich yourself by not paying as many taxes.
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yet you expect the government to pay LESS for more expensive equipment?
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No I don't. But we can fund socialized medicine without even raising taxes much if at all. Quit getting involved in bullshit little expensive wars (ahem, Iraq), and we'll have PLENTY of money to pay for it.
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how the hell did you get that impression from what i've said? ridiculous. you're not comprehending well. Teachers work in a SOCIALIZED field, public education, and their pay is crap
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Teachers in the NON SOCIALIZED field (private schools) get paid a lot worse than teachers in the public schools. Why?
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LEO's work in a government payed position, yet you fail to understand that i've been telling you the GOVERNMENT will not run things well, hence low pay for LEOs,
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You fail to comprehend your own post. You said:
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Originally Posted by you
Without the incentive to be financially successful, you will retard the entire field and all related markets with it.
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Whether the field is socialized or not, if there's no incentive to be financially successful YOU claim you retard the entire field. I pointed out that there are plenty of people who work in professions where they don't get paid very much money (whether socialized or not) who might take umbrage at your remark.
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you see for crap and are too blinded in your desire for social equality to see the reality of how it's never going to be obtained by government enforcement.
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Well, lemme just put it this way. Healthcare in this country is broken. Badly. It's far too expensive, and that's under your treasured system of enriching the rich. Your way doesn't work.
Canada does it my way, and they're doing just fine.
Which of us is seeing for crap?
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You read that i'm denigrating education for low income kids instead of what i'm really saying, which is the government run public education system sucks ass.
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Um, are you not a product of the public education system? Are you saying you're an uneducated ignoramus? Because that's what you seem to think the public education system is turning out.
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Next you'll be telling me that all we need to do is fund it better, right?
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No, we need to fund it smarter. Quit spending craploads of money on football and start spending it on academics.
FWIW the numbers for public schools are generally generated by the community the school is in. Public schools are for the most part state-run, not federally run.
I'm advocating a FEDERAL medical system.
Oh and as far as canadians having to wait months for basic medical care, I'm going to the eye doctor tomorrow for a prescription change. I made the appointment in October. This was the earliest available. We have to wait here too. That's a basic reality no matter what system you use.