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Originally Posted by roachboy
the idea that in a socialized health system "other people pay" is one that really encapsulates the effects of years and years of rightwing political/ideological domination and which demonstrates the claim that controlling how issues are framed is fundamental.
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You know, nowhere in your post did you actually debunk the idea that "other people pay". You provided a possible rationale for making other people pay - that they benefit from the society they're in - but they're still paying. And like I said to shakran, the position that they should be forced to pay could be completely reasonable. I just preferred a more honest description of the opposition's position.
For my part, I don't buy your argument because it strikes me as too one-sided: wealth isn't just possible because of the society of individuals, wealth also requires individuals in the society. It's not like society itself is an autonomous being capable of making choices. The choices are all ultimately made by individuals. And sure, some (much?) of the wealth is rooted in theft - eminent domain immediately comes to mind as a contemporary example, though there's probably much better ones - and we should work to eliminate such thefts when we spot them.
But wealth can also come about honestly in a capitalist society, through hard work, investment, and gifts (most notably inheritance). There's nothing inherently wrong about any of these modes of property acquisition. They certainly would owe the government for services rendered - particularly legal protections - but the credit for the wealth itself belongs to an individual, not the society.