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Originally Posted by roachboy
the nihilist "conditions have to be as they are or israel will cease to exist" line seems not worth the time it takes to type, and much much less as an guide for thinking about the situation.
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I am not saying it that way. I am not saying that things need to continue the way that they are for Israel to continue to exist. Anything can change and Israel can continue to exist.
What I am saying is that the majority of the arab world won't be satisfied unless Israel no longer exists.
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Originally Posted by roachboy
and this line of thinking seems the particular purview of americans. you dont see this kind of nonsense in israel, except perhaps for amongst extreme right wing parties, those dominated by extreme right wing settlers who are themselves a significant motor of the trouble israel has.
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You are right, thinking is not homogeneous in Isreal. Not even within parties.
It is the right (maybe more the far right and certainly the extreme right) who use this as a basis for any dealings. They take this as a given and use it to frame any discussions or nogotiations they are party to (within the Israeli gov't or directly with the Pallestinians and surrounding Arab countries).
This is why they look for security first before any concessions.
The Isreali left or moderate is always willing to give the benefit of the doubt.
Can I assume this is what you are suggesting?
If that is the case, what happens if Israel does all that you say?
Does terrorism stop?
I don't think it does.
This is why I mentioned that the PLO was started in 1964.
Now, I am not saying that Isreal should not do the things you say becuase of this, I am just saying that we should not believe blindly that this solves the problem.
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Originally Posted by roachboy
i think that israel is a simple fact of the matter. it is a nation-state like any other and is not going anywhere
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I agree. I don't think we can really get anywhere without that as an understanding.
I don't believe, however, that the majority of the arab world accepts this.
I also believe (and I am sure you do) that the Palestinan peolple are a fact as well. And as you eluded, I believe that most Israelis understand this.
I think that there will never be any solution that is considered satisfactory, nor even one that considered acceptable unless these facts are generally accepted by the involved parties - not just the Israelis, not just the Pallesinians, but the neighborring arab nations, the U.S., Russia, France, the U.K. and the rest of the world.