Mojo
A conclusion I had to reach when I was debating this issue here 3 years ago was people are going to interpret history as they choose. While it is similar to selective listening it also can have great differences. Selective listening is when one will only hear what they choose to hear. I view selective interpretation when applied to this particular subject is where one has researched multiple sources through various avenues.
It reminds me of how the movie Brave Heart opens “I shall tell you of William Wallace. Historians from England will say I am a liar, but history is written by those who have hanged heroes.” Not calling either side of this a hero, but the state of possible inaccuracies holds apparent truth that can be seen today. Go to a book store and purchase 2 books on history. They may have differences in them. That presents a problem- which one is correct? Which one is accurate? Which one really happened? Does the author have an agenda? What were their sources for compiling this gather documentation that is being presented as the truth? This practice can be seen right on your monitor. Go to various sites about history of the Holy Land. You will find great differences on how things are to have gone down. After reading through them check the source of the website. That’s why multiple sources can provide a foundation to better reach what is going to be registered as factual. In the end it’s going to be the individual that decides what they believe in their heart and mind of what they are going to interpret as the truth.
Hopefully anyone that is going to enter into a discussion of this subject has done some research. I think most here have. That tells me that no view is going to change. History already happened obviously, there is a wealth of information out there and everyone has access to it.
With all that said what I say here is how I’ve interpreted the information leading to my beliefs. Just for the sake of not having to put IMO before every statement or similar anything referencing history is how I read the information. So I am not throwing statements out there trying to school you, or tell you how “things are”. At this point in time same as 3 years ago I know we are going to maintain believing what we each believe. In the times I traveled there I met kind people who were both Jewish and Arab.
Do you think someone can not be anti-semetic but oppose Zionism? Do you think there is a difference between someone who is Jewish and someone that titles themselves as a Zionist?
Quote:
|
To start in your post you put forth what I have dubbed the "Magically appearing jew theory". Zionism started in the 19th century, on top of that Jews have always lived in the land of Palestine, thousands of them. To boot, Palestine never existed as a sovereign nation, and even more problems with the local arab population stems from the British protectorate that was established in the region effectively miffing the borders with Jordan and all that jazz.
|
In accordance to what has already been stated by someone else the census taken by the British in the in the early 1900s paints a pretty clear picture. Ofcourse the Zionist Organization of America states that it is inaccurate and the Jewish census is the correct one.
Quote:
|
After WWII the UN, not the league of Nations, went into deal with the escalating tensions between the populations of jews (old and new) and arabs, they came up with two ideas, partition or single state; it memory serves the palestinan Arabs refused either idea, at which point the partition was put into effect.
|
Aside and before this Arabs were actually selling land to incoming immigrants. I see that statement escalating tensions being accurate, but what is not being looked at here is the reasons for the tensions. There were immigration caps put into place. These were openly ignored by the British. One of their greatest mistakes. The Zionist movement caused such a tidal wave of incoming immigrants the British were either overwhelmed or didn’t want to be a force that went after a culture that had just taken such a beating (the Holocaust).
Most of indigenous populace (the arab majority) obviously saw foreshadowing of things to come and stopped selling land.
The influx of immigrants was only part of the issue. The Zionist movement fueling it is very apparent when you read any UN assembly addressed by the founding Zionists. They had no problem stating to the world exactly what their views were about the people that were living in the land they claimed as being rightfully theirs.
Quote:
|
Once the Jews declared their independence as a sovereign nation state, they were invaded by several neighboring Arab countries
|
Herein lies a common disagreement. One that continues to unfold. Ofcourse the arabs weren’t happy. The land that had been allotted to them was still being settled on. The common phrase I hear “they want to throw us into the ocean” really seemed the other way around. So as I see it, looking at the reasons WHY they were invaded holds some importance. Was it because they hated Jews? or was it because the newly formed and recognized state was carrying on operations that expanded into areas that had been allotted to the indigenous population?
Quote:
|
America recognized the infant Jewish state, they repelled the invaders and took gains. The Palestinians not being a sovereign nation were screwed, they just tried to eradicate the Jewish state and lost, bad.
|
What does sovereign really mean? Not being recognized by “whoever” doesn’t change the fact of all the lives that exsist there. Have you ever seen a map the towns that exsisted there? Israeli education has painted them right out of exsistence. Eradication or self defense?
Quote:
|
As far as aid for ISrael goes, yes they are our biggest recipient in foreign aid, all of which is in loan form and defense contracts for American products; as an aside Israel is the only nation to have never defaulted on a loan from us. The amount of aid given to Israel is no where near the ballpark of 70 trillion, I don't even believe it is close to 70 BILLION annually, it is more around 20 Billion (from what I've heard more like 16 billion). The second biggest recipient of American aid is Egypt, a country that is at peace with Israel.
|
What ever the case is, they have been caught spying on the US. Our great ally spying on us. It doesn’t seem to have affected aid though. I see this as being particularly F**ked up.
Quote:
|
I don't see how Israel inflames situations. Their mere existence is the problem, I don't see how it is their fault when Hezbollah a terrorist organization fucks with state sovereignty, effectively fucking Lebanon just like the PLO did in the 70's/80's. You bring up the constant condemnation of Israel, especially how it pertains to the UN, well if you pay any attention all vetoed motions from the UN are horribly one sided in favor of the Arabs with pretty much zero culpability towards Palestinian/Arab actions.
|
I do want to point out that this was created by an Israeli source. Gaza; the most condensed place on earth; ironically described as a large Ghetto by IDF soldiers that refuse to serve in the occupied territories--- was given to them, or more accurately they were allowed to stay. The Zionists view this as a gracious act and they should feel lucky. Heres a look at the other area that was given to them as Israel was recognized.
<object width="550" height="400">
<param name="movie" value="barak_eng.swf">
<embed src="http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m214/bushwhip/barak_eng.swf" width="550" height="400">
</embed>
</object>
Im only guessing here, but you probably think the data here is wrong or inaccurate. My question is if what you read through was the truth would you see evidence of possible genocide, or results of Israel defending itself? What is this process going to look like if allowed to continue?
Quote:
|
Israel is not going anywhere, they have rights as a sovereign nation. They have the responsiblity of providing for the common defence of their people, when terrorist organizations such as Hezbollah, the PLO, Hamas act, especially in an extra-national sense, Israel has every right to go gangbusters on the sovereign nations (or in the historical case of Palestine having not been a sovereign nation until recently) that aggress towards them.
|
1. Palmach, Irgun Tsvai Leumi, and Haganah exsisted before the PLO, Hamas, and Hezbolah.
2. You have to admit at least Native Americans got casinos
I will state if the Palestinians were given the land the were supposed to given, and Israel didnt carry clandestine operations against them-- and the Palestinians attacked them; Israel has every right to defend itself.
Rocketeers and gunmen have appeared to have turned into a successful justification to raze any infrastructure or educational system the Pals have left. Does security ever have the possiblity of becoming a slippery slope?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In reference to the title of this thread:
To me the Bible holds as much historical truth as greek mythology. (As a side note- I will comment that I have seen and experienced things that I don’t have an explanation for in the times I had been there mainly with this man
http://www.wyattmuseum.com/
But my views are the same none the less; that it is difficult to believe that there is going to be a supernatural exsistance after the battle of armaggedon. (or why there even has to be one) Me being a former Christian I used to have the belief that Jesus is going to rule over the world.
It is one of the big questions I used to have in how Jewish and Christian people could get along or be potlical allies. The nation of Israel bases the justifiable claim to the land on a spiritual belief. (well some of them do--- there are plenty of Jewish people that defend Palestine, and believe Israel to be an illegal state in that Israel is not suppose to exsist until their messiah arrives) Basically everything about the God-Jesus connection is a lie in the eyes of someone who’s Jewish.
I later came to learn that most Christians believe in order for the end of the world to occur and Jesus to return; Israel has to be a nation.
This is why I feel that the Christian influence is stronger than anyone on this thread realizes. I see what is happening now in that small stretch of land unfolding and bringing everyone and everything in to it. I don’t think it is Zionist lobbying that is letting this situation to go on.
Its apparent the rest of the world views this and the theme of what America is supposed to represent as being a hypocracy. Even our other ally the UK is one of the biggest factors of Israels current PM pushing for the west bank settlements to be disbanded. I dont see this ever happening. (he holds a 20% approval rating in Israel now) I see the Christian influence possibly superceding those with the power to carry reasonable actions. This being done because they see the New Testment coming true as being reasonable, or unavoidable. This is what I meant in the thread about a President being a Christian. Someone who is a devot Christian believes the New Testament is real and things to come are very real. So where is the line drawn between trying to lead and avoid world war and hopefully progress civilization into the ages with our own hands or making choices with the belief that God is going to come clean up our mess because we just cant help the fact that we are inherent sinners. (sorry ahead if you are christian and Im am offending you- this is MO only)
There lies the inherent danger. Events are going to unfold to self fufill a prophecy. I think what will really be left is a dead planet. If that is to be our fate, then we probably deserve it for allowing it to happen.
A great way to honor a creator, if there is one . . .