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Originally Posted by scottstall
I do disagree on several points though. Theres no true definition of what a "good Christian" is, but I believe more than 50% of christians would agree that a requirement to being christian would be acknowledging Jesus as the messiah.
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I'd guess that more than 50% of Christians believe that baptism is necessary to being a Christian, yet there are people who identify as Christian who haven't been baptised. Catholics and several Protestant denominations baptise through sprinkling at birth, while a relative minority believe that only full immersion is true baptism. Some believe in an age of responsibility, while others don't.
There are a lot of Christians out there who believe that their particular brand of Christianity is the one true one. I don't happen to believe that, but I respect the beliefs of those that do. I expect the same respect to be granted to me.
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When people believe different things but hold the same label to themselves, it's rather common to adjust the definition of that label to be the common ground. I believe in this case, the best and most useful common ground you can find is "A Christian is someone who believes that Jesus was the messiah."
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So if a person believed that Jesus was the messiah, but was never Baptised, never attended church, prayed, asked God for forgiveness, read her Bible, took communion, made a public declaration of faith, studied or understood the teachings of Jesus, followed his teachings, tried to emulate Jesus in how he dealt with others, she'd still be a Christian?
The nature of Jesus is one thing that was widely disputed among early Christians, and this is still debated today. The issue of baptism is debated. How to confess sins and ask forgiveness. How often one should take communion and what form it takes. The nature of angels and other created beings. Whether there are saints, and what role they should play. How the Old Testament should be interpreted. Whether works are required for salvation.
"Christian" isn't one thing, it's a dozen things, a hundred things, and everyone is going to have a slightly differing idea of what those things are. When a person uses the word "Christian" do describe herself, there are some things we might assume are probably true about her, but without knowing her specific denomination and belief system as it relates, we can't know her specific stance on any of these issues.
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Ask your Jewish friends if a significant number of Jews believe that Jesus was a prophet, therefore speaking god's word. That was the point I was trying to make with the Rabbi statement.
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Answer [paraphrased]: No. Among Orthodox Jews, Jesus is seen as a false prophet because he claimed to be the messiah, but did not meet the criteria, among other things, freeing the Jews. He believed this to be a standard belief among all the major flavors of Judaism. There is a smaller group, messianic Jews who do believe that Jesus is the Messiah of the old testament, but they are a tiny minority. When I asked him if these people were still considered Jews despite having a different belief regarding Jesus, he said of course they were.
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Most atheists, should they look at what Jesus taught, will agree with the ideas he had on how to treat other people. Are they Christians now?
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I would think that being atheist and Christian at the same time would not be possible, but I'd be willing to listen to why a person who doesn't believe in God would identify as Christian.
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I believe in defining words by merit of their definition,
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Even words like "lier" and "closed-minded"? You seem to have gone to a great deal of trouble customizing definitions for those words.
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I see alot more merit in my definition than yours.
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Given that I haven't presented my definition, I'm surprised that you're able to do this. So lets see what we can find from unbiased sources:
Christian
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A Christian is a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, referred to as Christ.
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It goes on from there, but I think that's a pretty good general definition. That's the Wikipedia entry. It lists a lot of different definitions there, clarifications and exceptions. You might want to try the link to Liberal Christians.
Let's check out Dictionary.com:
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Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
Chris‧tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kris-chuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian.
–noun
7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.
10. the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.
11. a male given name.
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Hmm. I seem to qualify on all those that arbe bold. I'm not a Protestant, though, so number nine is out, but it eliminates the Catholics, too.
Next definition:
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American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
Chris·tian (krschn) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "Christian" [P]
n.
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.
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Both of these.
How about
Religious Tolerance:
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There are probably thousands of different definitions of the word "Christian." We have chosen the same inclusive definition as is used by public opinion pollsters and government census offices: A "Christian" includes any group or individual who seriously, devoutly, prayerfully describes themselves as Christian. Under this definition, Christianity includes: Roman Catholics, Southern Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, United Church members, even a small minority of Unitarian Universalists, etc.
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Now that's a definition I can get behind.
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In point of fact, I'm going to hold to that definition until it doesn't apply to the significant majority of people describing themselves as Christians.
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The definitions I've been using apply to the significant majority of people describing themselves as Christians, and mine includes a
larger majority than yours does. In fact, my definition applies to very close to 100% of people identifying as Christian.
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Maybe there is no right and wrong definition for a Christian, but there are better and worse, and I feel I've found a better one than yours. I've supplied reasoning for why. Your more than welcome to dispute why your definition of Christian is better, but unless it encompasses most of the people describing themselves as Christians, and not a good deal of people that don't describe themselves as Christians, I'm still going to come to the conclusion that my definition is better.
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Mine describes the vast majority, approaching 100%, and nobody who doesn't identify as Christian. How about that.
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The point of a label such as Christianity, is to distinguish people by a common belief or action.
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Exactly. Like the definitions I supply above.
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This is why what I state doesn't fall under the scotsman fallacy, in the classic example of the scotsman fallacy there's two different beliefs of what a scotsman is, neither is more common really, and neither is horridly wrong. One's talking more about an attitude, another's talking about where someone was raised.
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Uh, no. The
No True Scotsman fallacy is exactly what you're doing. How about an explanation:
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No true Scotsman is a term coined by Antony Flew in his 1975 book Thinking About Thinking. It refers to an argument which takes this form:
Argument: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Reply: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge."
Rebuttal: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
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Let's put this in terms of this thread (paraphrased):
Argument: No Christian doesn't believe in the deity of Jesus.
Reply: I'm a Christian, and I don't believe that.
Rebuttal: Yes, but no true Christian doesn't believe in the deity of Jesus.
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As for my definition of lying, please do not misrepresent me. That word "letting" is very important. If they walk away with a misunderstanding and you don't know they're misunderstanding something, then you aren't lying. You didn't let them walk away with a misunderstanding.
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Ah. Well, I can't read minds, so unless I quiz them, there's no way for me to know what they did or didn't understand, so I guess I'm off the hook here.
Well, except that I'm letting them walk away (I'm a pacifist, so I'm not going to force them to stay) and they've misunderstood me, so I'm still a liar by your definition.
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I prefer my definition of lying because of it's merit, people who participate in a deception by witnessing it and not acting to correct it, are lying.
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So, there has to be deception involved. I thought that's what I was saying.
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A liar would be anyone who doesn't do their part to not let a lie perpetuate.
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And of course, I've never done that in regards to my religious beliefs, not in this thread, and not in any other context, because when I say that I'm a Christian, that is the truth.
Let's go back to our unbiased sources for this:
Liar:
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Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
li‧ar /ˈlaɪər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lahy-er] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
a person who tells lies.
[Origin: bef. 950; ME lier, OE lēogere. See lie1, -ar1]
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They're all pretty much like that, so I'll just post the one.
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However, I have outlined the problems with your definition of a Christian (athesits can be Christians and atheists at the same time), and why mine has at least a bit more merit. It doesn't apply, at least from my understanding of the situation.
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Textbook case.
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One of my friends, one I value very much artfully dodges the labeling issue when people ask what religion he is. If someone asked him if he's Christian he'll go "No. I'm Kasey [blanking his last name]" and he'll explain if you actually want to know what he believes, you'll get to know him. According to your definition he's a Christian, as he believes most everything Jesus taught.
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No, that does not fit my definition, as he does not identify as Christian. Unlike you, I'm not trying to tell others what to call themselves. I see that you respect your friend's choice. It would be nice if you respected mine.