Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - Limbaugh today..... anyone have any thoughts?

host · 11-09-2006, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

Personally, I think it was the conservative base telling their elected officials that they had gone too far left.

So many Republicans had been spending like drunken sailors that their constituents were disgusted with them. I'm not downplaying Iraq, scandals, and the rest; I'm just adding a different slant.

hmmm....I'm kinda surprised that I have to post the following, again....this denial of the details from marv, reminds me of the "there were too WMD and active WMD programs found by US weapons inspectors in Iraq"....

......If you decide to vote in the poll, please post a justification for the poll choice that you select. How do republicans jusitfy opinions that the democrats are the "party of big spenders"?

How do libertarians justify opinions that there is no clear difference between the two major parties, and that it is better to consistently vote for libertarian candidates, even if the result, as it clearly was in 2000, and in 2004, is that the party with the dramatically poorer record of budget management and growth containment of the government, retains power? How long do libertarians think that it will take, even if they somehow manage to elect a libertarian POTUS, and a one house congressional majority, to reverse the effect on the dramatic increase in US treasury debt, and in the growth of the federal government, that are the fallout from the "spoiler" effect of their 2000 and 2004 vote, against democrats?

I made the argument in the <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?p=2143414#post2143414">"1st Phone Call"</a> thread, that one major party's elected officials, during times in the past three decades when they held the office of the US presidency, and at least one house of the congress, achieved dramatically superior control of federal debt accumulation and growth of federal employment, than the other party, during the times that it held power.....

My argument was met with this response:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...29#post2143829

Quote:

Originally Posted by seretogis

....Wow. In seven years the federal debt increases (the amount that we pile on the debt) was lowered, and that is an accomplishment? Progress, perhaps, but not what we should be expecting from seven-plus years. Add to this the gross over-spending endorsed by both parties involved since 2000 and any temporary gain is negated completely.

Since when has our government employed the use of budget, taxation, and spending management? (Before you copy/paste, the previous was tongue-in-cheek.) You are missing the point completely, imo, that being that the government has overstepped its bounds and is no longer serving its primary need of defending its citizens from foreign invaders and criminals but is instead injecting itself into nearly every facet of our daily lives. Democrats AND Republicans encourage this, either "for our own good" or to embolden or justify the "American Way™." Both parties are ideologically antagonistic to the very principles this country was founded on, particularly individual rights, and have been for decades.

As for the "disaster" of leaving Republicans in office for two more years rather than voting Democrats into their place, that is laughable. I myself am prepared for a struggle of 20+ years to restore this country to what it should be -- a nation concerned with the safety and success of its free citizens, not emptying its pockets to foreign dictatorships or treating its people like cattle while granting political favors which lead those cattle to a slaughterhouse. The problem with this country goes far beyond the range of the moment, far beyond the last five to seven years or the next two years. Step back and take a look at what we have become and how terribly we have allowed our individual rights to be violated for the sake of convenience or a false sense of security.

seretogis.... since all lobbyist firms, beginning in 2001, had to hire only republicans, and dismiss democrats on their staffs, and since....beginning in 2001, all budgets were drawn up solely via the participation, in the house, of the republican caucas, after submission of a budget proposal by the republican POTUS, and with no democrat chairing and house committee, how do you support your claim:

Quote:

Add to this the gross over-spending endorsed by both parties involved since 2000 and any temporary gain is negated completely.

....and, while you wait for your libertarian third party to grow large enough to eclipse one of the other two parties, why do you concede to the folowing mismanagement? Haven't the debt accumulation and the federal government growth of the past six, years, set your libertarian agenda signifigantly farther back, than if you had managed to gain control of the government in 2001, or in 2005? Aren't many of the fiscal options for reversing the tide. gone, now that the deficit grows by more than $550 billion annually, compared to just $18 billion in 2000, and just $32 billion, in 2001, and now that the total treasury debt is $8500 billion, instead of 2001's $5764 billion?

Why do you favor leaving the control of the budget in the hands of a party that has no plan to reduce additional $500 billion deficits, or to end "wars of choice"? Isn't it much harder now, even if you were to gain power, to achieve swift and signifigant reversal of the current course, than if you did not serve as "spoilers" in the 2000 and 2004 elections? Why do you not consider voting "defensively" for democrats, especially if your goal is smaller government and dramatically less spending? Won't the debt service burden...hundreds of billions of addtional budget dollars spent on annual interest payments resulting from nearly $3,000 billion in recent new debt, hamper your plan to swiftly implement "reforms" on some (possibly distant), future date?

Quote:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...34/ai_96644869
All the presidents' employees - Data - federal employment growth or shrinkage by president - Brief Article
Reason, Feb, 2003 by Brian Doherty

It's often said there isn't a dime's worth of difference between today's two major political parties. But Democrats and Republicans still try to cast themselves as cats and dogs. For example, Republicans label their adversary the party of big government, while Democrats count the GOP as a tool of the military-industrial complex.

Does the rhetoric reflect reality? When considering statistics about civilian employment by the federal government, the answer is clearly no. During the last 40 years, Democratic administrations added to the federal government's payroll 31,000 civilian defense employees (Defense Department employees who aren't soldiers), and 49,000 nondefense employees--some growth in both categories. But Republican administrations have on balance subtracted 426,000 civilian defense jobs--and added 320,000 nondefense employees. That adds up to bureaucratic bloat more than six times that of the Democrats. The biggest slasher of federal nondefense payrolls was Bill Clinton.

Government Employees Added or (Subtracted)

Civilian Defense Non-Defense

Kennedy (12,000) 73,000
Johnson 312,000 105,000
Nixon/Ford (333,000) 213,000
Carter (25,000) (14,000)
Reagan 91,000 3,000
George H.W. Bush (184,000) 104,000
Clinton (244,000) (115,000)

Source: Budget for Fiscal Year 2003 Historical Table 17.1, "Total
Executive Branch Civilian Employees: 1940-2001"

COPYRIGHT 2003 Reason Foundation

Quote:

1981....A 12 year period of Republican Control Begins...
ftp://ftp.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdm091981.pdf
TABLE II -- STATUTORY DEBT LIMIT, SEPTEMBER 30, 1981
(Amount in millions of dollars)

Public Debt Subject to Limit:
Public Debt Outstanding.............................................. $997,855
Less amounts not subject to limit:
Noninterest-bearing Debt............................................ 607
Unamortized Discount .............................................. (*)
Federal Financing Bank..............................................
Total Public Debt subject to limit................................... 997,248
Other debt subject to limit:
Guaranteed Debt of Government agencies.............................. 435
Total Debt Subject to limit.......................................... 998,818
Statutory Debt Limit ................................................ 999,800
Balance of Statutory Debt Limit...................................... 982

ftp://ftp.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdm091989.pdf
TABLE II -- STATUTORY DEBT LIMIT, SEPTEMBER 30, 1989
(Amount in millions of dollars)

Public Debt Subject to Limit:
Public Debt Outstanding.............................................. $2,857,431
Less amounts not subject to limit:
Noninterest-bearing Debt............................................ 597
Unamortized Discount .............................................. 12,360
Federal Financing Bank.............................................. 15,000
Total Public Debt subject to limit................................... 2,829,474
Other debt subject to limit:
Guaranteed Debt of Government agencies.............................. 296
Total Debt Subject to limit.......................................... 2,829,770
Statutory Debt Limit ................................................ 2,870,000
Balance of Statutory Debt Limit...................................... 40,230

ftp://ftp.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdm091993.pdf
TABLE II -- STATUTORY DEBT LIMIT, SEPTEMBER 30, 1993
(Amount in millions of dollars)

Public Debt Subject to Limit:
Public Debt Outstanding.............................................. $4,411,489
Less amounts not subject to limit:
Noninterest-bearing Debt............................................ 592
Unamortized Discount .............................................. 80,539
Federal Financing Bank.............................................. 15,000
Total Public Debt subject to limit................................... 4,315,358
Other debt subject to limit:
Guaranteed Debt of Government agencies.............................. 213
Total Debt Subject to limit.......................................... 4,315,471
Statutory Debt Limit ................................................ 4,900,000
Balance of Statutory Debt Limit...................................... 584,429

1993, A 12 Year period of Republican Control Ends, an 8 Year Period of Democratic control, Begins:

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdmss09.htm
TABLE II -- STATUTORY DEBT LIMIT, SEPTEMBER 30, 1997
(Amount in millions of dollars)

Public Debt Subject to Limit:
Public Debt Outstanding.............................................. $5,413,146
Less amounts not subject to limit:
Noninterest-bearing Debt............................................ 536
Unamortized Discount .............................................. 70,054
Federal Financing Bank.............................................. 15,000
Total Public Debt subject to limit................................... 5,327,556
Other debt subject to limit:
Guaranteed Debt of Government agencies.............................. 68
Total Debt Subject to limit.......................................... 5,327,624
Statutory Debt Limit ................................................ 5,950,000
Balance of Statutory Debt Limit...................................... 622,376

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opds091999.htm
TABLE II -- STATUTORY DEBT LIMIT, SEPTEMBER 30, 1999
(Amount in millions of dollars)
Public Debt Subject to Limit:
Public Debt Outstanding......................................... $5,656,271
Less amounts not subject to limit:
Noninterest-bearing Debt.................................... 529
Unamortized Discount ......................................... 73,154
Federal Financing Bank......................................... 15,000
Total Public Debt subject to limit................................... 5,567,588
Other debt subject to limit:
Guaranteed Debt of Government agencies............ 106
Total Debt Subject to limit...................................... 5,567,694
Statutory Debt Limit ................................................... 5,950,000
Balance of Statutory Debt Limit ................................ 382,306

2000: Budget Data indicates that, after 7 budget years, Democratic budget oversight and tax policy yields a cessation of treasury debt accumulation, the first time that this has occurred in 25 years:
http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opds092000.htm
TABLE II -- STATUTORY DEBT LIMIT, SEPTEMBER 30, 2000
(Amount in millions of dollars)
Public Debt Subject to Limit:
Public Debt Outstanding............................... $5,674,178
Less amounts not subject to limit:
Noninterest-bearing Debt.................................... 526
Unamortized Discount ......................................... 67,246
Federal Financing Bank......................................... 15,000
Total Public Debt subject to limit.......................... 5,591,407
Other debt subject to limit:
Guaranteed Debt of Government agencies............ 218
Total Debt Subject to limit...................................... 5,591,625
Statutory Debt Limit ................................................... 5,950,000
Balance of Statutory Debt Limit ................................ 358,375
2002 Budget, ending on Sept. 30, 2002, marks end of first year of new period of Republican control of federal government......<>
ftp://ftp.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdm092006.prn
TABLE II -- STATUTORY DEBT LIMIT, SEPTEMBER 30, 2006

Debt Subject to Limit: 19
Public Debt Outstanding............................................ 8,506,974
Less Amounts Not Subject to Limit:
Other Debt Not Subject to Limit...................................... 506
Unamortized Discount 3............................................ 72,286
Federal Financing Bank 1 ..................................... 14,000
Total Public Debt Subject to Limit................................. 8,420,183
Other Debt Subject to Limit:
Guaranteed Debt of Government Agencies 4 ......................... 96
Total Public Debt Subject to Limit.................................. 8,420,278
Statutory Debt Limit 5............................................. 8,965,000
Balance of Statutory Debt Limit.........................................544,722
COMPILED AND PUBLISHED BY
THE BUREAU OF THE PUBLIC DEBT
www.publicdebt.treas.gov

2006: Budget Data indicates that, after 5 budget years, Republican budget oversight and tax policy yields a resumption of treasury debt accumulation, at a record annual pace, to a record level.... as total US treasury Debt increases by more than $2,800 billion, an increase greater than 50 percent, compared to the Sept. 30, 2001 debt total of $5706 billion.