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Originally Posted by scottstall
Ahh. Then it's differing definitions of lying that is the problem.
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I suppose. I mean lying in the sense of dishonesty, words or intent to deceive.
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To me, a lie doesn't have to mean you intended to decieve from the get go. Someone else can tell a lie in front of you, and you can lie by being passive.
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I disagree, but I didn't do either of those now, did I?
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Lying to me is letting the other person walk away with a misunderstanding.
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I strongly disagree. If the other person misunderstands, that's a misunderstanding, not a lie.
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You know that your definition of Christian is rather different than most peoples, but then again, I'm not exactly giving out stats here so you could ignore me.
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1. There is no one definition of Christian, there are dozens, hundreds perhaps. The way I define what it means to be a Christian is different from others, this is true, but everyone's definition is somewhat different; everyone's choice of how to interpret what it means to be a Christian in their own lives is shaped by their personal relationship with God and with their church.
2. I am not attempting to define "Christian" in general, because there is no one definition that describes every single person who identifies as Christian. I define only what it means to me to be a Christian.
3. The definition of Christian that I use to describe my own beliefs is very much in line with the great majority of Christian beliefs, differing far less than it is the same. There is, I suspect, more in common between my beliefs and those of the Episcopalians than there is between Baptists and Catholics. But we're all Christians.
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While I don't doubt you have no intent to decieve, anyone that's looked up your past posts and all, but you really can't expect that of everyone.
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I identified my specific belief system in the very first line of the very first post in this thread. Nobody needs to look anywhere other than right here.
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You can't expect that of someone on the side of the street who overhears you saying "I'm a Christian, I believe in the teachings of Jesus."
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It's lying if a stranger on the street overhearing a conversation misunderstands it?
I really don't care what strangers overhearing my conversation think of it.
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They're going to walk away believing something that is incorrect.
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No, they're going to walk away believing that I'm a Christian who is a follower of Jesus, two correct things.
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If your not making attempts to fix that, to me, your lying.
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So if I am making statements I believe to be true to someone, someone overhears them, misunderstands, and thus believes I meant something different, and I don't correct that, I am lying to her?
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I'd be alot more hesitant to state that your lying if you identified yourself as a Unitarian Christian, rather than just Christian.
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I DID THAT.
Did you not read the first line in my first post in this thread? I
clearly identified myself there and made reference to it several times.
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The definition of Christian I get time and time again, or at least of "your going to heaven" is being baptised, or communion, or whatever local flavor. Saying that Jesus has been accepted in your heart, and doing something symbolic, while saying it in public and never denying it.
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Baptised when? At birth like with Catholics or at the age of responsibility, like with most Protestants? What form? Is sprinkling OK, or does it require full immersion? By whom? Does it require a holy person, or can any Christian do it? Ask two dozen Christians these questions and you'll get two dozen different answers, yet they'd all still be Christians despite defining "Baptism" differently from one another.
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What my point in speaking up was letting people know the UUA is not a christian organization. They are an everything organization.
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One of those things is Christian. See my example with my GLBT organization, it exists to provide for the needs for three distinct groups: homosexuals, bisexuals, and transgendered people, most of whom are straight. We're happy to have straight cisgendered people join us because we're inclusive, not exclusive.
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From what I understand they see the mark of a creator in everyone, and as long as you respect other people's religion, you respect their divine spark, you may attend freely.
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Not necessarily. You don't even have to be a theist to be a member. This doesn't mean that those of us who are Christians lose that status merely because we belong to an organization that doesn't restrict itself to Christians. I'm a Christian and a Unitarian Universalist. There is no conflict between those two identities.
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It may. Usually with me, especially on a written out forum where I can proof read, I mean exactly what I say. Seeming to imply usually means your trying to interpret something from my post, when you don't exactly know where I'm coming from.
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Of course I'm trying to interpret your post. It would be impossible to communicate with you if I didn't.
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Oh. I can respect that, and its actually very Unitarian of you. A problem does arise when you start using your own custom definitions though on words that have pretty much been defined in popular opinion.
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Like "lying".
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But hey, I've got the right to define terms as I want, right?
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You sure try hard at it.
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Communication is about conveying words so that the other person understands. It doesn't really matter how you say something, what words you use, as long as the other person understands what you mean. I'm pointing out that people that just jumped in, and only read your first post, or even read all of them, are going to say that your not a Christian.
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So far you're the only one doing that, but you're not the first. That's called disagreeing. That they disagree with my usage does not make me a liar.
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Pretty much anyone of a major organized denomination, and I suppose if I had to define major organized denomination, I'd say anyone thats got a church they can go to and only run into people that have their beliefs, or are interested in them, that identifies themselves as Christian, is going to say, your not a Christian if you don't accept the divinity of Jesus. (yay run on sentences...)
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A significant minority do, but most others don't have a problem with my identifying as Christian.
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At some point there has to be a line of distinction, and I believe its popularly understood that the line of distinction for Christianity is in the divinity of Jesus.
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From my experience in debate classes, I've learned that this is a common fallacious tactic. Your proving a degree, and when they agree with that, saying that then the whole thing must be right. Christian in nature doesn't mean a Christian organization, and I definitely disagree that a Christian organization can be composed of anything but Christians. In a Christian organization, you are either a Christian, or a visitor.
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Wow. I really couldn't disagree more.
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Christian organizations are by definition made up of Christians, even to apply your own belief system, made up of people who define themselves as Christians and maybe not even eachother. I have a feeling though that you'd define a Christian organization as any that has a Christian nature. That's the logic you used a second ago, as I come to understand it.
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I said UUA is partly a Christian organization. I tend not to think in hard binary terms. Very little in life works that way.
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*sigh* We're not speaking the same language, I'm afraid. You believe its everyones right to communicate as they understand the language,
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I don't believe I've said that.
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I believe it is everyones responsibility to communicate as the people that hear them would understand the communication. To me, I approach more the utility of language, the fact that language is meant to aid communication and communication breaks down when you define a word different than how people understand it.
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Like, "lying" for example.
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Relinquishing that responsibility of trying to communicate in a manner the other person(s) would understand is conciously lying. I feel I've proven my point though.
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First I strongly disagree that not trying to communicate clearly is lying. I'd call that laziness. Many of my students are too lazy to make an effort to communicate clearly.
Second, at what point in this thread do you think I failed to attempt to communicate clearly? Was it in the
VERY FIRST LINE of my first post where I identified myself as a Unitarian Christian?
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I've stated why you shouldn't say your Christian,
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You've stated why
you believe I shouldn't say I'm a Christian. I shall continue to do so nonetheless, secure in knowing that I'm telling the truth.
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as you state I have the right to define things as I will,
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No, I didn't say that at all. But you know, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were mistaken, not lying. Or wait, if you misunderstood what I was saying, does that mean that I'm lying?
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what you are doing constitutes my version of lying I've the right to say your lying as much as I wish, and why these definitions and beliefs are good definitions and beliefs.
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Sure you have that right, and I have the right to think you're twisting the logic and meaning of the words involved for the purpose of calling me a liar.
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I even approached the purpose of language and how if all were to follow as you lead, language wouldn't work.
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I am so glad my employer doesn't feel this way.
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If your not accepting by now, it's because of a closed mind in my opinion.
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I'm closed-minded because I identify as Christian, don't like being called a liar when I am telling the truth, think people should be free to choose their religious affiliations as they see fit, and believe that Christians should be free to decide what being a Christian means to them? I'm closed-minded because I don't think there's any one concrete definition of "Christian", that it's a personal decision each person should make for herself? I'm closed-minded because I accept all of the different denominations and peoples defining themselves of Christian as Christian and don't think any one group has the one true answer? I'm closed-minded because I don't think any group should be able to dictate to others who aren't members of their organization how to define themselves? I'm closed-minded because I believe an organization can accept others who don't strictly meet the definition?
Yet your telling me I'm not a Christian because I don't meet your specific definition, and that I'm a liar if I continue to make that claim doesn't make you closed-minded. Your belief that people who don't meet your specific definition of Christian can't be part of a Christian organization isn't closed-minded.
Being accepting and inclusive is closed-minded, and rejecting and exclusive isn't.
I think you've reversed the definitions there for the purpose of calling me names again.
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According to that... a good number of Rabbi's would state that your Jewish, "you" just think that the idea's conveyed in the New Testament are good teachings and guides to go by. I'd be willing to bet that those Rabbi's would agree with that as well. Just not that Jesus was the messiah...
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I know a few Jewish people. I can guarantee you that you're incorrect here. You're either Jewish by birth or by conversion.
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*sigh* I could keep on doing this forever, but I fear there isn't a point. Your not going to agree with me, and any audience if there was one gets the point.
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Even by your bizarro definition of lying, I have not been lying here. I was clear in my first post exactly what my religious affiliations are, both of them. I was clear regarding my religious beliefs in my second post. I had no intent to deceive, my words were true, and I didn't leave anybody with a false idea of my belief.
By the way, you might want to check your notes from your debate class. What you've used heer is a textbook No True Scotsman fallacy.
I am a Christian.