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Originally Posted by scottstall
Ok. First off... never said Unitarian's can't be Christians. I never would say that either. My experience with the word Unitarian comes from my experiences with our local branch of the Universalist Unitarian Fellowship.
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The content of this post seems to imply that you believe that.
I'm going to assume that you mean the Unitarian Universalist Association. Local branches are mostly autonomous and free to choose the name of their particular local congregation. Mine does refer to itself as a church.
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As for stating that your lying about religious beliefs, it has alot to do with my definition of lying. To me, lying is letting the other person walk away believing "something that is wrong, because you either filled in the blanks wrong (by their definition), or failed to fill them in. You can lie intentionally, which is wrong, or unintentionally, which is bad but can't be helped.
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I believe that lying is the intent to deceive. People misinterpret words and actions quite often. This does not make those words or actions lies.
I identified my religion and my church in my first post here. I've talked freely about my religious beliefs in my journal, in religion threads, and in homosexuality threads. The idea that I've been in any way deceptive regarding how I've represented my religious beliefs is ludicrous.
Anybody who read even the posts in this thread knows that I identify as Christian, that my church is Unitarian, and that I follow the teachings of Christ while not believing him to be divine. If someone came away from that with the wrong impression, they weren't paying attention.
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I suspect you just don't agree with other people's definitions of christians, you know them, you just don't care.
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I do care, very much. I'm aware that for most Christians, a belief in the deity of Christ is an important part of their identity. I don't dispute that belief, nor do I believe that I'm in any position to dictate to others what terms they should use to identify their religious beliefs. Freedom of religion, freedom to believe and worship as one sees fit is very important to me.
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To the great majority of people, being Christian means you believe in the divinity of christ. There is no if's and's or but's.
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To many Protestants, Catholics aren't Christians, no ifs ands or buts. I prefer to let each person and each group define themselves.
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Adding denominations to that doesn't change the fact that Jesus is the son of God in their beliefs.
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I greatly respect that belief.
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I suppose it's a question of degree's. If 99% of people believe that saying your Christian means you believe Jesus is the son of God, as in, divine birth, and you don't, when you tell the other people your Christian, are you lying?
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Nope. It means I have a different conception of Jesus than most other Christians:
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What about Jesus?
Classically, Unitarian Universalist Christians have understood Jesus as a savior because he was a God-filled human being, not a supernatural being. He was, and still is for many UUs, an exemplar, one who has shown the way of redemptive love, in whose spirit anyone may live generously and abundantly. Among us, Jesus' very human life and teaching have been understood as products of, and in line with, the great Jewish tradition of prophets and teachers. He neither broke with that tradition nor superseded it.
Many of us honor Jesus, and many of us honor other master teachers of past or present generations, like Moses or the Buddha. As a result, mixed-tradition families may find common ground in the UU fellowship without compromising other loyalties.
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As for the UUA... I'm fairly sure they don't even consider themselves a church. Our local branch goes by "fellowship." and the association name goes by Unitarian Universalist Association.
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It's a democratic organization. Each congregation is free to adopt whatever label it wishes. Mine is a church, and a quick peek at the listings indicates that about half identify that way.
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"Many Christians are fine with hmosexuality and gay weddings. UUA, MCC, and Episcopaleans, for example."
And by this sentence, you are actually literally meaning that the UUA is a christian.
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No, that is not my meaning. My meaning is that there are Christians that are fine with homosexuality and gay weddings, those that attend UUA, MCC, and Episcopalian churches, for example. At this point I'd add the United Church of Christ.
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You can actually replace the organization names with proper names. Since that doesn't make sense, the next logical assumption is that the UUA is a christian organization.
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It is partly:
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Are Unitarian Universalists Christian?
Yes and no.
Yes, some Unitarian Universalists are Christian. Personal encounter with the spirit of Jesus as the christ richly informs their religious lives.
No, Unitarian Universalists are not Christian, if by Christian you mean those who think that acceptance of any creedal belief whatsoever is necessary for salvation. Unitarian Universalist Christians are considered heretics by those orthodox Christians who claim none but Christians are "saved." (Fortunately, not all the orthodox make that claim.)
Yes, Unitarian Universalists are Christian in the sense that both Unitarian and Universalist history are part of Christian history. Our core principles and practices were first articulated and established by liberal Christians.
Some Unitarian Universalists are not Christian. For though they may acknowledge the Christian history of our faith, Christian stories and symbols are no longer primary for them. They draw their personal faith from many sources: nature, intuition, other cultures, science, civil liberation movements, and so on.
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Ask yourself that if you've never heard of the UUA, and you read that, would you walk away believing that they're a christian organization? I would. Hence, I feel the need to speak up, to prevent them from being misrepresented. I know alot of people that wouldn't be going to the local fellowship should they believe it was a christian organization. I know alot of people that go because they aren't trying to make them believe in anything Jesus said, much less, he is the son of god. Those people, should they have read that sentence, wouldn't be going to our local fellowship, if they made the same inference that I did.
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Of course. One of the great appeals of the UUA for me is that it doesn't require adherence to any specific creed or church doctrine to be a member of the congregation. I wouldn't be going if it were restricted to Christians only, either, because then my wife (Shinto) and my sister (Buddhism) wouldn't be welcome.
An organization can be at least partly Christian in nature, attract and accept Christians, be supportive of their belief system, and yet still be welcoming to those who aren't Christian. For a nice parallel, my GLBT organization is happy to welcome people who aren't gay or transgender. We have a lot of straight members.
"Christian" doesn't need to be restrictive. It can be inclusive instead.
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The funniest part of this whole thing is this.
"I believe in a supreme force, maybe not a being, but not in Christianity any more. We're all connected through some kind of energy, religious, agnostic or atheist. And I certianly think you can believe what you do and that's fine as long as you're a nice person."
"We are in agreement here as well."
You just stated that you don't believe in Christianity. Is it safe for me to assume by saying that, your not christian?
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No, I didn't state that. I agreed with another's post. My intent was to agree with the bolded part there, and in editing I didn't clip out the beginning. My mistake.
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The thing I've learned about religion and declaring yourself as any such is that you have to play by other people's definitions, the popular definition, or the definition of the founder. Step lithely and carry a big stick...
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Which one organization's definition of "Christian" is the one true one? Catholics? Many Protestants don't consider them Christian.
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Anyways, it appears my purpose of speaking has been met. Fix the misrepresenting of the Universalist Unitarian Association, and point out that you aren't exactly a Christian by most any Christian's standards.
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I did not misrepresent the UUA, which by the way is the Unitarian Universalist Association. I represented
myself as a Unitarian Christian, which was a true and accurate representation. I am a Christian by the standards of a good number of Christians, including those of my Church, the somewhat similar beliefs of the church of Unity, and including, by the way, many early followers. The nature of Christ was greatly disputed among early Christians until it was sanctified by a vote of representatives at the council of Nicea.
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I believe the definition of a religion to be established by it's founder(s), or democratic. Christianities definition has gone to democratic in my opinion, and I suppose thats the point I'm trying to make.
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Sure. The Baptists get to define what it means to be a Baptist, the Catholics what it means to be a Catholic. The UUA gets to define what it means to be a Unitarian Universalist, which, as you can see above, includes some members identifying as Christian and doesn't require them to accept the deity of Jesus to do that.
I'm perfectly comfortable that I'm being honest when I say I'm Christian.