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Originally Posted by Gilda
Not condoning is not the same as condemning. However, I do think maybe you chould consider the story of Johnathan and David. It's a pretty sweet love story.
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I'll get to this later on.
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Actually it is up to debate. We've been debating it. It is subject to interpretation. Every person interprets everything they read every time they read it, without exception. If you gain meaning from words, you have interpreted them.
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You can interpret it however you want, but the Bible's condemantion of homosexuality is definite. This has been proven through numerous studies by differing people over the past fourty or so years. The studies are there; All you have to do is read them. I, myself, have given you three or four different references. I'm sure you could find a few hundred more if you visited your local library or even used the internet.
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It's absolutely a rock solid argument, because different interpretations of scripture do come to different conclusions regarding the meaning. This is a fact.
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No, it's not a "Rock solid argument". You can easily examine the original Biblical scrolls (What's left of them, anyway). I hate to burst your bubble, but this has been done before by multiple people and the conclusion is the same. There really isn't any debate over the subject. In fact The majority of scholars and theologins simply do not make the claim that the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality, because their is overwhelming evidence which proves otherwise.
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Of course. There is not, however, one Christian belief system. There are hundreds of them all having certain elements in common. Unity, MCC, Pentecostals, Episcopaleans, Catholics, and Southern Baptists are all Christians, and all come to different conclusons using the same basic source materials. Some Christians believe in Biblical inerrancy. The MCC churches, for example, believe this, and likewise believe that there is no blanket condemnation of homosexuality in the bible...
...I'm cool with that. It's fine with me that Catholics don't have female or openly gay clergy. I'm no longer Catholic, so their belief system doesn't apply to me. It's cool with me that Southern Baptists believe in "once saved, always saved". I don't believe that, but I'm not a Baptist, so it's not something that I need to be concerned with. The Church of Christ and the First Christian Church have nearly identical belief systems, but the Church of Christ split off from the FCC in an internal dispute over whether the Bible permits instrumental music in church and other related topics. I'm a Unitarian
Universalist, so other Christian belief systems aren't applicable to me, except when they're used as justification for restricting my human rights, in other words, used to attempt to regulate matters external to the church rather than internal.
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If you studied Christianity you will find that the belief system between differing sects remains almost constant; Most of the splits are caused by trivial matters (Such as the iconoclastic controversy) which don't affect the central belief system. As I'm sure you're aware, even amidst their differences the majority of Christian sects remain united in their stance against homosexuality. Why, you might ask? Well, it's rather simple. The sects which insist that the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality commit a cardinal sin; They reject the Bible's teachings as a whole. This directly contradicts the Christian belief system.
No "Christian" believes in Biblical innerancy. To do so is to deny basic Christian discipline.
http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi...nspiration.php
The Bible says that everything you do should be for the glory of God (1 Corinthians 6:18-20). To exclaim that the Church as a whole is trying to restrict your "Human rights" by denouncing homosexuality when you profess to be a Christian is astounding.
Not to sound pompous, but you display a very basic understanding of Christianity.
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I, for one, don't claim to know more.
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Yes, you do. You ignore any and all evidence presented to you and instead choose to recite the same rhetoric over and over and over again.
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Everone who reads the bible interprets it. Everyone who reads anything interprets what they are reading. Only the illiterate don't do this. You cannot live by Biblical principals without doing this, without knowing what they are and what they mean and how they apply to your life situation.
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The passage of Scripture which you're trying to interpret needs no interpretation, because it's concrete. I hate to constantly repeat myself over and over and over again, but there are hundreds of studies which re-affirms the traditional view held by many Christians.
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For example, I see no biblical condemnation of monogamous, stable, loving, same-sex relationships.
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...Because you ignore it whenever someone presents you with it. I, myself, have given you at least three or four different references which proves your claim to be false, and you could probably find a thousand more by visiting your local library or using the internet. You, however, don't want to.
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The two men meet, love each other more than their own souls at first sight, Johnathan strips and presents those things that are most valuable to him to David...
...A covenant to join houses in the name of the Lord....
...And speak of the covenant with God joining their houses.
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I'm wondering... Do you know what the term "Covenant" means? A covenant, in Biblical terms, usually translates to loyalty and allegiance. Jonathan presenting those things to David that were most valuable to him represents his willingness to sacrifice materiality for friendship. Time and time again, you see this type of covenant demonstrated in David and Jonathan's relationship.
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Saul is upset that his son has shamed him by loving David, to the point that he wants David killed.
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That's not accurate. Israel openly accepted David and sung his praises moreso than Saul. This, in turn, made Saul jealous. Saul hated David not because of his relationship with Jonathan, but because David was seen as greater than Saul.
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The two men kiss each other and cry as they say goodbye...
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Kissing was commonplace in the Bible and used to signify greetings and farewells.
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Finally David professes a love for Jonathan greater than the love of women.
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This he does. Now notice how there is absolutely no mention anywhere of a male-male relationship between David and Jonathan anywhere in the Bible (In fact, there are none of any sort). Also notice that David's relationship with Bathsheba was far more sexual-- And detailed-- Than the relationship he had with Jonathan.
Once again, it's not widely accepted that David and Jonathan had any kind of relationship other than platonic as this would contradict Biblical law.
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It's a classic love story...
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I wonder how you came to this conclusion? David was a man after God's own heart and God staunchly opposed homosexuality. David couldn't have had a homosexual relationship with Jonathan, as this directly contradicts the "Laws of Moses".
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Ruth and Naomi
Ruth 1:16-17
‘Do not press me to leave you
or to turn back from following you!
Where you go, I will go;
where you lodge, I will lodge;
your people shall be my people,
and your God my God.
Where you die, I will die—
there will I be buried.
May the Lord do thus and so to me,
and more as well,
if even death parts me from you!’
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If you're going to quote a passage from the Bible, make sure you don't take it out of context.
Just to give a bit of background information, Ruth was married Elimelech and had two sons, Mahlon and Chilion. Fearing a famine in Bethlehem, they all moved to Moab. Once in Moab, Elimelech died. Later, Mahlon and Chilion married Orpah and Ruth. After a few years, Mahlon and Chilion died. As a result, all thre women became greater friends. One day, Naomi wished to travel back to Israel-- Orpah and Naomi wished to go with her, but Naomi insisted that they both go bck to their families. Orpah left but Naomi didn't and followed Ruth to Israel. Once in Israel, Ruth cared for Naomi and began to work for a man named Boaz. After a while, Boaz introduced himself to Ruth, they fell in love, were married and had a son named Obed. Naomi cared for Obed as Ruth had cared for her.
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Sweet, isn't it? Words spoken from one woman to another. Grace and I used this as part of our wedding ceremony.
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Sweet! You married your sister-in-law?
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Originally Posted by Zyr
I have a simple request. I don't think it's too much to ask. It's a simple thing that I think would clear up a lot, and hopefully put us all back on the same page. I ask you to answer the following question, first in a single word, and then back that up with quotation. Does the bible condemn (not the same as not condoning) homosexuality (The sexual preference, not just the acts) explicitly? Where? (Biblical quotes, please).
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Leviticus 18:22-- You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:13-- If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10-- Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Romans 1:26-28--For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.
All taken from the NASB version (You can use a different version if you wish). I also posted a few links somewhere which clearly define the term arsenkoitai (The Biblical word used to denote homosexuality) as well as detalied analyses of the aforementioned passages.