Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post

Baraka_Guru · 09-22-2006, 04:49 PM

Okay, this is what was missing from one "Islam: Religion of Peace?" argument (omissions are in blue):

Quote:
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Don’t exceed the limits? The Koran teaches restraint!?

Quote:
[2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know. [2.217] They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution is graver than slaughter; and they will not cease fighting with you until they turn you back from your religion, if they can; and whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever—these it is whose works shall go for nothing in this world and the hereafter, and they are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide [2.218] Surely those who believed and those who fled (their home) and strove hard in the way of Allah these hope for the mercy of Allah and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Fighting is disliked? And could be evil?

Quote:
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement…

Okay, I admit this punishment is a bit severe… but do we know what is meant by “mischief” (and is this a good translation)? And is this that much worse than what America could be doing in secret?

Quote:
[8.39] Shakir: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

Then surely Allah sees what they do… and hmm, maybe fighting is no longer necessary?

Quote:
[9.12] And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief—surely their oaths are nothing—so that they may desist. [9.13] What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Apostle, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers. [9.14] Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.

Breaking an oath is a serious offense. Openly reviling one’s religion is too. But expulsing the Apostle and attacking first? That sounds really bad.

Quote:
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

This sounds like a call to fight any who aren’t of an Abrahamic religion [edit: or who don't follow the laws and customs of Muslims in Muslim lands], and Islam wasn’t the only religion to persecute pagans. But if this does refer to anyone who isn’t Muslim, then this model isn’t that bad. Paying a tax as a non-Muslim within a Muslim state is better than being exiled or killed. Actually, isn’t this similar to the economic systems found in monarchies? Monarchies have subjects too, right?

Why was so much left out of these passages? These weren't culled directly from sleazy propagandist websites, were they? Does anyone else here think that much of the meaning was altered in these omissions? This does not help us get the the truth, does it? The other issue is that we're missing other elements of context in terms of where these passages appear in the Koran and which passages are missing in between.

Yes, there is violence in the Koran, but these are instructions for preservation of a belief, a Truth. Both the Jews and the Christians have been historically violent for the same reason. Violence is a painful part of our humanity. Pointing fingers doesn't solve the problem of why people are committing evils which we are all capable of.

09-22-2006, 04:49 PM	#73 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Okay, this is what was missing from one "Islam: Religion of Peace?" argument (omissions are in blue): Quote: [2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. Don’t exceed the limits? The Koran teaches restraint!? Quote: [2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know. [2.217] They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution is graver than slaughter; and they will not cease fighting with you until they turn you back from your religion, if they can; and whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever—these it is whose works shall go for nothing in this world and the hereafter, and they are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide [2.218] Surely those who believed and those who fled (their home) and strove hard in the way of Allah these hope for the mercy of Allah and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Fighting is disliked? And could be evil? Quote: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement… Okay, I admit this punishment is a bit severe… but do we know what is meant by “mischief” (and is this a good translation)? And is this that much worse than what America could be doing in secret? Quote: [8.39] Shakir: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do. Then surely Allah sees what they do… and hmm, maybe fighting is no longer necessary? Quote: [9.12] And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief—surely their oaths are nothing—so that they may desist. [9.13] What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Apostle, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers. [9.14] Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people. Breaking an oath is a serious offense. Openly reviling one’s religion is too. But expulsing the Apostle and attacking first? That sounds really bad. Quote: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. This sounds like a call to fight any who aren’t of an Abrahamic religion [edit: or who don't follow the laws and customs of Muslims in Muslim lands], and Islam wasn’t the only religion to persecute pagans. But if this does refer to anyone who isn’t Muslim, then this model isn’t that bad. Paying a tax as a non-Muslim within a Muslim state is better than being exiled or killed. Actually, isn’t this similar to the economic systems found in monarchies? Monarchies have subjects too, right? Why was so much left out of these passages? These weren't culled directly from sleazy propagandist websites, were they? Does anyone else here think that much of the meaning was altered in these omissions? This does not help us get the the truth, does it? The other issue is that we're missing other elements of context in terms of where these passages appear in the Koran and which passages are missing in between. Yes, there is violence in the Koran, but these are instructions for preservation of a belief, a Truth. Both the Jews and the Christians have been historically violent for the same reason. Violence is a painful part of our humanity. Pointing fingers doesn't solve the problem of why people are committing evils which we are all capable of. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 09-22-2006 at 05:19 PM..