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Originally Posted by hannukah harry
who does teh killing does matter. murder is, if i'm not mistaken, the unlawful killing of another person. so as it stands, to call abortion murder is, at least by definition, incorrect. it is lawful to perform an abortion. the unborn do not have legal standing as a person, and you can't murder some thing that isn't a person (or do you feel that meat is murder too?).
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Muder also means to kill something brtually or inhumanely
(But we won't get into semantics.)
The last time I checked, 28 states have fetal protection laws, so apparently someone considers them "Persons" (Does anyone remember the Laci Peterson case?).
And, as far as meat is concerned, we (People) generally hold human life in higher regards than we do animal life. Therefore, I don't see the point in you trying to relegate a fetus to a piece of meat makes.
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i never claimed that it isn't life from the moment of conception. it is life. but it's not a person. it is cells containing human dna that will, if nature allows, become a human baby. but until it passes through that birthing canal, it is not a person.
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So, in your own words, the difference between a person and a non-person is whether or not they're born? Never mind the fact that someone is essentially the same 30 seconds before they're born and 30 seconds after they're born, their birth status is the only thing that matters?
We generally describe a person as a human being, or anything which has the capacity to become a human being.
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i disagree. the fetus is not its own organism. it is not seperate of the woman. if it were, we could easily remove it from the mother and hook it up to a nutrient tube and it'd go on developing just fine. to claim otherwise is to not understand biology or human development. to consider the fetus as anything but part of her is just inaccurate.
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I have a fairly good understanding of biology and the developmental stages of a fetus.
A fetus is not like, say, an arm or a leg; It's more than just an extension of the female body. In fact, it's completely seperate of the female body. A fetus develops it's own vital systems, internal and external organs and, after a period of time, is fully capable of living without being attached to the female.
Can you say the same with an arm or a leg? No, you can't. A fetus isn't part of a females body.
Oh... And I just wanted to point out to you that there are cases where a fetus has been removed from a mother, hooked up to a nutrient tube and been saved.
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you really think that? do you realize the mortality rate of child birth? even if it's only 2%, would you be willing to risk your body for something you don't want but someone else does? add to that morning sickness, possible high blood pressure and diabetes brought on by bearing the child? the weight gain (which might not come off)? having to buy a whole new wardrobe, the changes in hormones that just make you seem crazy, the back pain, the swollen feet? and then the pain of child birth. i wouldn't go through all of that and child birth if you paid me $100k.
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*Radical thinking ahead!!!*
Then don't have sex if you don't want to assume the consequences. Men are forced to accept the consequences of their actions one way or another, so a woman should be, as well.
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look at my paragraph above. what part of that does a man do? a man supplies 50% of the genetic material. he does not do 50% of the work. that's like saying that because i gave you half of your paint supplies, i did half of the work in creating your painting.
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I believe you answered your own question: A man suplies 50% of the genetic material-- Same as a woman.
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a woman does create a baby on her own. she has to to an outside source in order to get some of the material, but she does all the work in building the baby. your donation of half of the genetic blueprint does not give you 50% of the say in anything when you consder she also gave 50% and does all the work. there is no gross inequity. the only problem i see with the whole debate is that some people men feel that they have a right to treat women as property.
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A woman creates a baby on her own? That's preposterous poppy cock! Last time I checked, humans weren't asexual-- It requires both a man
AND a woman to create a baby. The last time I checked, a woman's body doesn't create anything. The only thing it does do is to provide nutrients to the fetus and place where it can develop; Nothing more and nothing less.
If I, as a man, donate 50% of the genetic blueprint to make a baby then I, as a man, should have 50% of the say so in what happens to that baby. I'll tell you what, though. If you can explain to me how any woman outside of the virgin Mary can have a baby in the absence of a man, then I'll concede my argument to you.
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if it's in her body, it gives her control over it. because it is HER body.
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"In her body" and "Her body" are two totally different concepts. When a woman decides to have an abortion, she's not dealing with "Her body", but rather the fetus' body.
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it may be a double standard, but tough shit. that's life. we are not equal. biology dictates that we will never be equal. to try to make men and women equal legally in things that are not equal biologically is wrong. it does nothing more than turn women into incubators.
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I'm just going to keep repeating this, but a woman isn't 100% responsible for making a baby, so she shouldn't get 100% of the decision.
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again, this isn't an equal situation. to try to force the same stipulations on both sexes goes against our basic biology. i believe that before you fuck someone, both the man and the woman should know what the other would want to do if a pregnancy occurs. if you don't want a baby, use protection, multiple layers if possible. but if you think that 2 minutes of fun should give you control over a womans body for the next 9 months just because she has some genetic material of yours in her, is wrong.
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~ Situation #1 ~
A woman tells a man that she doesn't want to have children. They end up having sex, the woman gets pregnant and later decides to keep the baby. What happens to the man? He gets fucked, as he has no say in the matter. He's becoming a father, simply because the woman says he is.
~ Situation #2 ~
A man and a woman both decide that they want children. They end up having sex, the woman gets pregnant but later decides that she wants to have an abortion. What happens to the man? He gets fucked yet again, as he has no say in the matter. He loses out on the chance to become a father, simply because the woman doesn't want to have a baby.
Why is it that a woman is never expected to bear any responsibility from her sexuality? If she doesn't want children then-- And I know this is a
VERY hard concept for some people do understand-- She should keep her pants on. It's as simple as that. By dropping her pants and bouncing up and down on some guy's dick, then she assumes the risk that she's going to get pregnant. If she didn't want to get pregnant in the first place, then she shouldn't be having sex.
A man can't have sex, get a woman pregnant and then decide that he doesn't want to be a father, so neither should woman. Women should be held to the same standards as men.
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i think arbitrarily claiming that abortions are mainly a matter of convinience is the quick and easy way out.
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http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/poli...abreasons.html
It's a nice little survey done around October of 2005 on abortions and the reasons given by women who've had them. I'm sure you'll notice that the most common answer among woman for having an abortion is/was "I don't want to have children right now".
If that's not a matter of convenience, then I don't know what is.
There is something interesting, however. If a man were ever to say that he shouldn't be forced into being a father because "He's not ready" or because he "Doesn't want children" or that he's not "Emotionally stable" to raise a child, he would be laughed at, told to keep his pants on and told to be a man and raise the child. Yet when a woman does it, no one even thinks twice about reprimanding them or telling them to accept the consequences of their actions.
Why is that?
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i'm sure there are women out there who have had abortions and don't think anything of it. but i'd bet for most women and girls who have one, it's not an easy decision.
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For the most part, that simply isn't the case.
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i'd bet most put a lot of thought into whether it is the right thing for them right now. there's a book i saw on amazon a couple years ago, i don't remember the name or the author (if i have time, i'll look for it and update if i find it)... anyways, the author talked with numerous women who had abortions about why they did it, what went through their decision making process, etc. i highly doubt for most women it's a "oh, if i'm pregnant i can't drink for 9 months, lets get an abortion" scenario.
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Here's something to think about. Each year, 2 out of every 100 women aged 15 – 44 have an abortion (5%); 48% of them have had at least one previous abortion. That means that approximately 2.5 women out of 100 aged 15 - 44 who had an abortion last year had a previous one.
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nope, i wouldn't have chosen to be aborted. but i doubt that a fetus who was aborted would care, one way or the other. neither would a fetus that is miscarried (aka natural abortion). and i could find lots of people who do not have the desire to be live but do. ask dr. kevorkian, he could point you to a few. or find a suicidal person. nor does everyone have the right to live. or else we would not have capital punishment.
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When I said "Everyone" I was speaking in general. There are always exceptions to the rule, but organism generally have the desire to live. Anyway, everyone has the right to live until you do something to forfeit it. In the case of those given the death penalty, they have usually done something to warrant it. A fetus has done nothing to forfeit that right.
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just because you think women do it because it "inconveniences" them doesn't mean that's why they do it.
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In the United States, less than 1% of abortions are due to rape or incest and less than 1% of abortions are done due to medical complication. The majority of abortions are done simply because the woman doesn't want to have a baby. Tell me, if it's not inconvenience which makes them have an abortion, then what is it?