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Originally Posted by abaya
2) But no, I do not believe anyone has the right to establish a homeland (Jewish or otherwise) on TOP of someone else's land, thus creating another displaced population. It will not work, and it is not working. They could have picked somewhere else. Maybe that sounds simplistic, but honestly... there WERE other options. You would have to be insane to think, even back then, "Hey! Let's create a homeland for the Jews... in that lovely, welcoming place called the Middle East. There's plenty of space and the people are very welcoming to Jews... everyone loves their neighbors there. Let's do it, man." (And people are STILL surprised at the reactions, 60 years down the line... ) I mean, W T F ?
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Good points..but you must be aware that there are legitimate counter-arguments. The jews have as much religious and historical devotion to the land as the arabs do. Empires have come and gone in the region, kicked jews out, but that doesn't erase the fact that jews have lived there for thousands of years. Another inflammatory issue would be that the majority of the jewish religion's most holy sites are located only in Israel, while many of the most holy islamic sites are scattered around the middle east. Yet there remains no compromise on issues of tolerance.
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3) That said, if it had to be Palestine... the Jews, as with all other populations in the world, deserve a "homeland" in a troubled area to the extent that they are able to defend its borders ON THEIR OWN, just like everyone else (other than Israel) is forced to do.....
I mean, if I, as a suburban middle-class person, move to the ghetto because my great-grandparents used to have a house there, and Dammit, I WANT to live there no matter how dangerous it is... I'm not going to expect the fucking US government to subsidize my desire to live in the ghetto. Good luck. I would be on my own, no matter what happened to me. Any of you would agree with that...
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I don't agree with this line of reasoning. If this were the case, then there would be no justification for partnerships, coalitions or any other type of mutually beneficial political relationships. No need for the United Nations (which I could be tempted to argue for), no need for NATO, no Allied Force in WW2, no Axis Force - there are many examples of strategic partnerships found throughout history.
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Originally Posted by roachboy
that's because i didnt say what you impute to me.
i responded directly to your question.
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I think the record is clear as to what you said above.
Whether it was elicited from me or not...only you would know for sure.
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kadima is sharon's party.
let's not play stupid games.
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Historically, perhaps. But operationally, kadima has made concessions that likud never would. I don't think kadima are as far right as you would have them be, and I don't think right-wing politics are behind Israel's right to security.
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personally, i think that if there is a basic driver to all this trouble, it is the fact that most israeli political organizations are geared around the notion that israel must be a specifically jewish state. it would be easier for everyone if israel could become secular, dont you think? for example, that would undercut the basis for the oppression of the palestinians, yes? it would undercut any and all objections to the right of return, yes? it would not necessarily preclude anything--but it would remove religion, and ways of thinking about conflict rooted in religion, from conflicts.
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No, I don't think the basic problem is in Israel being majority jewish. You must be aware that in Israel there are arab jews, arab christians, and arab muslims living together in peace. I find this extremely telling. A government adequately providing for its people in a free and open society, and the people take it from there. Which might be one reason why the middle east lives in such fear of Israel - the fear of obsolescence. Unlike many countries, in the west for example, most of Israel's problems come from without, not within. So I have no idea why you bring up the issue of secularism. Israel would be one of the very last entities in the region I would accuse of needing to dispense with religion. As far as issues of refugee re-assimilation, I've just about given up on its validity. When I see what happens to Israel when it returns land, and the way other arabs and persians manipulate the palestinian people for their own political gain, I wonder how legitimate the whole issue really is.