4thTimeLucky

Lebell

Thanks for the PM.
For those following this and confused by my earlier post, this was a sperate thread but has been merged. I suspect/hope that this discussion may go on a bit, so might be demerged if things get too complicated - I will leave that up to Lebell's good judgement.

So.....

Lebell, you use the common analogy that petitionary prayer is like a child asking their father for help. I am happy to take that as our starting point. Let me lay out the four necessary and together sufficient conditions for a child's (C) petition to their father (F) to be efficacious:

1) Child C chooses to make a petition to father F for him to do S.
2) C’s petition brings about a change in F’s intentions.*
3) F does S.
4) If F had not been petitioned he would not have done S.

* Note that this change in intention can occur for one, or all, of three reasons:
- A change of knowledge [F never knew that C wanted a pony]
- A change of heart [F was either moved or pestered into buying the pony]
- Empowerment. The requests gives the petitioned person new authority or options for action.

Now for my questions...

i) Condition (2) requires a change in the intention of F. God's intentions do not change.
Would it therefore be right to say that petitionary prayer cannot be efficacious, because condition 2 can never met?


Okay, so let's assume (though you will have to convince me why I should) that God can change.....

ii) We saw that there were two reasons why a petition may be efficacious. A change of knowledge or a change of heart.
God is omniscient and so no gaining of new knowledge can occur.
God is completely good and therefore will always do what is best for us. Therefore no change of heart can occur, because God's heart is already as full of love and caring as it can be.
God is omnipotent and possesses all authority. Therefore our prayers cannot empower him with power or permission that he did not already have.
How then, even if God can change, is the petition to be efficacious, if it can change neither knowledge, heart or power?

iii) Assuming that there are answers to (i) and (ii). Does it make sense to pray for God to help people in the past? If so, why does the church rarely call upon us to do so. [One exception being in the Tridentine Mass: "Delivee us, we Beseech thee, O Lord, from all evils past, present and future."]


I do have a couple of other questions, but those will do for now.
You may now see why I started a new thread.
At the outset I should acknowledge that a thread is certainly not the best forum for discussing such things as a solution to the issue of petitionary prayer will require many interwoven strands. Nonetheless I hope that you will enjoy at least throwing a few ideas out there and seeing if we can't make a little headway.

I look forward to your response

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I've been 4thTimeLucky, you've been great. Goodnight and God bless!