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Originally Posted by The_Jazz
DK - you're using your 20/20 hindsight glasses again. Weaver was suspected of selling illegal weapons. Any prudent person would assume that there are other weapons (legal and/or illegal) on the premises.
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so we should all assume that anyone who sells marijuana also sells heroin, crack, and hemlock? OR that someone who passes off a bad $20 check is also embezzling billions from the world bank? see how far fetched that is?
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Originally Posted by The_Jazz
Sending in snipers and an assault team is the prudent way to approach that situation. To argue otherwise is equivalent to saying that the police should be unarmed completely - criminals will often fire at the police in an attempt to escape. And make no bones about it, as soon as you fire at a policeman, you are a criminal.
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And since you didn't follow my other post about militarized police, this would make sense. But innocent people are MURDERED by law enforcement agents because of YOUR mentality....and that's ok because the 'greater good' is served.
Nobody suggested that the police go unarmed, but even YOU have to admit that there is such a thing as overkill. A man sold ONE short barreled shotgun and we should assume he has grenades, claymores, and RPGs????
As far as firing at a policeman making someone a criminal?? Where is the fine line between a homeowner enjoying a quiet night at home with has family and shooting at a suspected home invader or a cop????
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Originally Posted by The_Jazz
David Koresh and the Branch Davidians had the same issues in that they were suspected of having a large stockpile of weapons and a will to use them. Should the ATF have shown up with a bouquet of flowers instead?
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The Davidians had an ongoing contract with a local gun dealer to convert ar-15s to M16s via a government contract. This was known to the government. The ATF ALSO knew that Koresh made DAILY trips in to the town and could have picked him up at anytime. The raid was done to show the 'usefulness' of the ATF and to allow Clinton to avoid having their budget cut.
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Originally Posted by The_Jazz
Elian Gonzalez's grandfather made several well-publicized statements about being willing to shoot anyone trying to take the kid and there were many threats in the Cuban community to the same effect. If an unarmed CPS social worker showed up with the lawful authority to take the kid were shot by someone in the house, what would your reaction be?
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First, it was Elians uncle, not grandfather. Second, they were protecting a family member, whose case was STILL being heard by the courts. Third, the INS was given an ILLEGAL order by the AG (RENO) to take him. Every american would have had every legal right to shoot and kill ANY federal agent that tried to take him at that point in time.
Shooting at a cop does NOT make you a criminal, if it's within the law.
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Originally Posted by The_Jazz
Just because some of the information turned out to be questionable AFTER THE FACT, that doesn't mean that using armed officers wasn't warranted at the time. Unless of course you have some sort of ability to see into the future and tell if folks are unarmed when you show up. In which case, please look into next week and see if they have the sports page laying around so that I can get some bets down.
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The constitution is the law. The law is the law. The government is NOT your friend. Get something straight jazz, they are NOT here to help or protect you. If they are violating the constitution, you are well within your RIGHTS to shoot back, kill them if necessary. Yes, you'll be prosecuted (if you're not already dead) but it's because of viewpoints like the one you espouse that perpetuates their power, not ours.
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Originally Posted by kutulu
Yes, lets forget the fact that Weaver was protecting Arayan Nation assholes. Or the fact that they were patrolling their property with weapons and promised to shoot anyone who came near them. They were white trash separatists and got what they brought upon themselves.
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First, no charge or warrant was detailed that accused weaver of protecting 'aryan nation assholes'. Second, ANYONE can patrol their own property with weapons. I can do it here in Texas, Most anyone can do it anywhere, with the exception of a few totalitarian gun hating states. Unless a cop is coming up my driveway with warrant in hand ANNOUNCING that he has a warrant, I could warn him of trespassing and then shoot him. Did Weavers 14 year old son get what was coming to him? what about his wife? Everything else you've said is just ad hominen attacks for your unwillingness to accept whats real.
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Was anyone killed in the raid to get Ellian?
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Amazingly not. Does it make any difference whether the LAW was broken or not?
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Originally Posted by The_jazz
magictoy, all that doesn't change the fact that officers on the raids had every reason to suspect an armed response. Their tactics were completely justifiable even if the evidence was not.
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SWAT teams and officers on raids have ONE, I repeat ONE, objective.....to go home at the end of their shift. I ask you, why are THEIR lives worth more than YOURS?? Worth more that YOU shouldn't be allowed to defend your life or that of your families, for the simple FEAR that a law enforcement officer could be shot or killed in the event of an accident or mistake? Personally, I think EVERY officer should expect an armed (heavily armed) and extremely violent response. Maybe that way police and politicians might take the rights of peacable citizens more seriously.