View Single Post
Old 07-23-2006, 01:39 PM   #218 (permalink)
host
Banned
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVoiceOfReason
Ok, I've just scanned six pages of notes here, and have neither the time nor inclination to cut and paste, nor to make sure I'm not repeating some things. Let me try to bulletpoint this situation:

1. Why is there a current armed conflict? Isn't it because Hezbollah (and Hamas) grabbed some Israeli soldiers and had been firing rockets into Israel?

2. Why is Hezbollah allowed to set up shop in Southern Lebanon? If the Lebanese goverment don't want them there, then aiding Israel in rooting them out would be the proper course of action; if they want them to stay, then they have sided with the enemy of Israel. There is no middle ground, no area of grey on this point. Destruction of the Lebanese infastructure is a means to the end of the elimination of Hezbollah.

3. A cease-fire demand by anyone that doesn't carry with it clear and unambiguous penalties for violation is worthless......
IMO, if the "conflict" could be reduced to the first sentence in your bulletpoint <b>"1."</b>, in the "real world", you might have made some important points in your post.....

But.....you don't get to frame the discussion based solely on where you decide, for the sake of your argument, where <i>"a current armed conflict"</i> begins. The "conflict" is influenced by the history of the region, and that history contains everything in my post here:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...3&postcount=21

I could ask, with what I've supplied in that post, how two "terrorists"
could be allowed to "set up shop" in the office of the Israeli PM....ever? Could such a thing happen in the U.S.....could the POTUS be a former terrorist leader???

You fail to mention that Israel has responded in the past month to two incidents where armed opposition, not officially sponsored by either of the elected governments of it's two neighbors, staged attacks on Israeli military positions and killed and kidnapped Israeli soldiers, by launching large scale attacks on civilian infrastructure in both of those neighboring jusrisdictions.

If I post that the "current armed conflict" began in 1983, when more than 250 U.S. soldiers were bombed to death in their barracks in Beirut....an attack that Hezbollah is said to have taken "credit" for, would that justify U.S. military intervention in Lebanon now?

Israel has "tolerated" sporadic attacks of a few "dumb" rockets per incident, fired into it's territory from southern Lebanon for at least the last six years. Has invasion of it's neighbors and large scale exertion of force, brought lasting peace to the region inhabited by Israel, in the 30 years since official armies of sovereign neighbors have ceased attacking Israel? What is the goal that you believe will be accomplished by Israel's disproportionate use of force, this time?

You hold the "Lebanese goverment" responsible. How can you expect a fledgling government of a poor nation with a small army, a government tentatively knit together that is comprised of several opposing elements of both religion and nationality, to control Hezbollah, when Israel, with it's mighty IDF, occupied that region for 18 years and could not eliminate or signifigantly reduce Hezbollah?

The U.S., many times more powerful militarily than Israel, has no success in controlling illegal entry at it's own southern border, or the insurgency in Iraq.....yet you give Israel a "green light" to collectively punish all of Lebanon, and I assume, all of Gaza, too.

I see a new "game", here. A game where, in a new era of popularly elected political factions of "terrorist" labeled insurgents, the voters themselves become "fair game", in order to justify disproportionate military responses....like Israel's on civilians and civilian infrastructure.

By that measure, are all of the U.S. voters who backed Bush/Cheney 2004, "fair game" for Queda or Sunni "sleeper cells" in the U.S.

Where is the collective voice against all violence, beyond defense?
Pre-emption seems to be a spreading disease. Was diplomacy so flawed that it is to be abandoned in favor of whipping up the discredited cycle of violent retribution? Take the U.S. for example.
Has our government's violent response to "terror", in Afghanistan or in Iraq, or by abondoning the "peace process" in the M.E., made us "safer", or wealthier? Are there less "terrorists today, that "hate us for our freedom", than there were in the autumn of 2001.

Can't we stop picking sides, stop the madness of the cycle of violence, and talk ourselves to death, face to face with our adversaries instead? It will happen anyway, but the question is, how many will die in vain before it falls to diplomats to attempt what could have been tried, all along? Empty finger pointing to justify killing that accomplishes nothing for those who allow themselves to be caught up in it, and escalate it, only obstructs the path to peace.

Taking "sides" is only useful if the plan is to exterminate all men of fighting age on the "other" side. Is that the plan?

Last edited by host; 07-23-2006 at 01:43 PM..
host is offline  
 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360