|
Banned
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by stevo
roach, your omission of anything pre-1967 is obvious. Are you denying the facts as I have presented them?
|
stevo, as Charlatan posted,
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Charlatan
Yes, in this current conflict, Hezbollah "started it". Israel is justified in engaging Hezbollah. <b>But you cannot look at just this isolated incident</b> (as much as some would).
|
stevo, all of the following information is "pre-1967".
If you disagree with any of it, you can edit it, within the guidlines of the Wiki
non-biased POV policies. I cannot imagine offering you a more reasonable set
of sources to support my opinion that Israel has no claim to justify resorting to violence against others in the M.E. region, than others have to justify resorting to violence against Israel.
The first article excerpt, stevo, documents the fact that a founding Zionist, living in Palestine, concluded in 1923 that the "solution" was to<b>"impose the Jewish presence on the Arabs by force of arms until eventually they came to accept it".</b>
The rest of the documentation includes a description of LEHI, aka the "Stern Gang", and support for the idea that both Shamir and Begin were terrorists who received amnesty, then integrated with their "band" into the IDF, and then both were later elected as prime ministers of Israel.
Their history and activities seem no different in their methods and reputations than the militant wings of Hamas or Hezbollah, including their transformations from terrorists to political leaders, complete with the support of their respective electorates, eeirily reminiscent of the transformations of LEHI leaders Shamir and Begin from terrorist to political leaders, via votes received by their political parties.
Begin was denounced in 1948 in a letter to the NY Times, signed by Albert Einstein, that compared Begin's "politics and methods" to those of "Nazis and fascist parties".
stevo, why is it so important to you to seperate "islamic terrorists" from all other factions who choose violent methods of expression to achieve a variety of political goals? It seems simplistic, inaccurate, and prejudiced. Why not adopt a policy of equal condemnation of all who resort to attempted imposition of their physical will to dominate and control their opposition?
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
Zionism is a political movement and ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3,200 years ago and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states existed up to the 2nd century.......
......To take an example, the leader of the Revisionist Zionists, Vladimir Jabotinsky, is often presented as having had an extreme pro-expulsion view but the proofs offered for this are rather thin. According to Jabotinsky's Iron Wall (1923), an agreement with the Arabs was impossible, since they
look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. To think that the Arabs will voluntarily consent to the realization of Zionism in return for the cultural and economic benefits we can bestow on them is infantile.
The solution, according to Jabotinsky, was not expulsion (which he was "prepared to swear, for us and our descendants, that we will never [do]") <b>but to impose the Jewish presence on the Arabs by force of arms until eventually they came to accept it.</b> Only late in his life did Jabotinsky speak of the desirability of Arab emigration though still without unequivocally advocating an expulsion policy.........
|
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29
Lehi (IPA: ['lɛxi], Hebrew acronym for Lohamei Herut Israel, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel",....was an armed underground Zionist faction in pre-state Israel (British Palestine) that had as its goal the eviction of the British from Palestine to allow unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state.
British authorities called the group the Stern Gang (named after its first commander, Avraham Stern), a label that persists in historical accounts.
.....Justification of terrorism
An article titled "Terror" in He Khazit (The Front, a Lehi underground newspaper), Issue 2, August 1943, argued as follows. The full text of the article is available at Wikiquote.
Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can negate the use of terror as a means of battle.
...
We are quite far from moral hesitations on the national battlefield. We see before us the command of the Torah, the most moral teaching in the world: Obliterate - until destruction.[1] We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all.
But primarily terror is part of our political battle under present conditions and its role is large and great..........
|
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shamir
.....In 1941 Shamir was imprisoned by British authorities. <b>After Stern was killed by the British in 1942, Shamir escaped from the detention camp and became one of the three leaders of the group in 1943, reforming it as "Lehi".</b> During his tenure, the Lehi was responsible for the 1944 assassination of Britain's minister of state for the Middle East, Lord Moyne; an assassination attempt against Harold MacMichael, the High Commissioner of the British Mandate of Palestine in the same year (Kushner, 2002, p. 348), and in 1948 the assassination of the United Nations representative in the Middle East, Count Folke Bernadotte who, although he had secured the release of 21,000 prisoners from German camps during World War II, was seen by Shamir and his collaborators as an anti-Zionist and "an obvious agent of the British enemy" (Gazi, 2002, p. 32).......
|
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin
......Begin issued a call to arms and from 1945-1948 the Irgun launched an all-out armed rebellion, perpetrating hundreds of attacks against British installations and posts. For several months in 1945-1946, the Irgun’s activities were coordinated within the framework of the Hebrew Resistance Movement under the direction of the Haganah, however this fragile partnership collapsed following the Irgun’s bombing of the British administrative and military headquarters at the luxurious King David Hotel in Jerusalem, <b>killing 91 people, including British officers and troops as well as Arab and Jewish civilians. The Irgun under Begin’s leadership continued to carry out military operations such as the break in to Acre Prison, and the hanging of two British sergeants,</b> causing the British to suspend any further executions of Irgun prisoners. Growing numbers of British forces were deployed to quell the Jewish uprising, yet <b>Begin managed to elude captivity, at times disguised as a Rabbi.........</b>
.....Altalena and the War of Independence
As the Israeli War of Independence broke, Irgun fighters joined forces with the Haganah and Lehi militia in fighting the Arab forces. Notable operations in which they took part were the battles of Jaffa, Haifa, and the Jordanian siege on the Jewish Quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem. One such operation in the Palestinian village of Deir Yassin in April 1948, which resulted in the death of more than a hundred Palestinian civilians, remains a source of controversy. Some have accused the Jewish forces of committing war crimes, while others hold those were legitimate acts of warfare, however it is generally accepted that the Irgun and Lehi forces who took part in the attack carried out a brutal assault upon what was predominantly a civilian population. As the Irgun’s leader, Begin has been accused of being responsible for the atrocities that had allegedly taken place, even though he did not partake in them.
|
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Zionism
.....The national-messianist movement, called Lehi and nicknamed the "Stern Gang" by the British, was led by Avraham "Yair" Stern. Lehi was founded by Stern in 1940 as an offshoot from Irgun, and was initially named Irgun Zvai Leumi be-Yisrael (National Military Organization in Israel or NMO). The group openly described itself as terrorist. Following Stern's death in 1942—killed under disputed circumstances by British police—and the arrest of many of its members, the group went into eclipse until it <b>was reformed as "Lehi" under a triumvirate of Israel Eldad, Natan Yellin-Mor, and Yitzhak Shamir. Shamir became the Prime Minister of Israel forty years later.........</b>
.....On December 4, 1948, the New York Times published a letter to the editor signed by over two dozen prominent Jews condemning Menachem Begin and his Herut party on the occasion of Begin's visit to New York City.
<b>Comparing Revisionist Zionism streams to "Nazi and fascist parties", the letter was signed by individuals like Albert Einstein</b> and the anti-Zionists Hannah Arendt and Sidney Hook. The letter began:
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents. (source: NY Times, December 4, 1948).[2] ........
|
|