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Originally Posted by xepherys
Hmmm... first of all, simply disallowing you to join isn't having the "define" you, at least not any differently than you "define" yourself. And second class citizens? Hmpf!
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What you describe here is a good definition of second class citizenship.
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First of all, many gays and lesbians in the military right now are finding it much harder than they expected to get out by playing that particular card. Why? Because it's more important to keep troop strength high.
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So they want to exclude us, but only when it's convenient.
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The don't ask don't tell policy may be silly, but in all reality it's a GOOD idea. Not a GREAT idea, but better than other options at this particular point in our societal climate. Frankly, the government is representative of the citizens of the country. If you look around you, those representing us (those people are also citizens as well) are not ready and don't feel the populace is ready for mainstreaming gays and lesbians.
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As I said, institutionalized bigotry. Think about how that would sound if you substituted blacks or Jews. Even better, substitute straights for gays and lesbians there, and you'll see how belittling such an attitude is.
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Why do you think two more states have just recently changed or overturned previous changes and now again have constitutionally prohibted gay marriage?
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Oh, I know this one: Bigotry.
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By not allowing gays to talk about their sexuality in the military, it protects all involved. Those that would be uncomfortable with it need not have lowered morale.
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If I'm made uncomfortable by a black man kissing a white woman, should that be banned? Why should we cater to the bigots?
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Those who might get their asses kicked becuase of it are safe to not worry about physical retribution.
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Wait, so homosexuals have to hide who they are and who they love to avoid getting their asses kicked, and that's not defining us as second class citizens? If blacks were getting their asses kicked for being black, would you be defending that? If women were being assaulted for being women, would you be defending that?
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The military itself saves itself a lot of headache, hassle and lega issues by preventing both of the former events from occuring. My ONLY criticism of the military regarding their stance is that you must "swear and attest" to the fact that you are straight, even if you aren't.
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I would never do that. Would you sign a statement declaring that you were gay as a condition of employment?
This does seem to be a very strong indicator that the military doesn't want homosexuals.
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However, I think the GLBT section of society overreacts to this type of issue. . . .
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People do get testy about being denied equal rights under the law.
If anything, your defense here has only cemented my belief that homosexuals are treated as second class citizens in the military. They have to sign a statement that is untrue, pretend to be straight or at least hide their sexuality for fear of being beaten, discharged, or jailed, and live in an atmosphere that promotes bigotry against them. I would assume that I would not be allowed to live with my wife, so we can add broken families to that list.
Assume for a moment that you were expected to do all that as a result of your being heterosexual: signe a statement saying you were, gay, pretend to be gay, be separated from your wife, live in fear of being attacked for being straight, and live in fear of being discharged or jailed for being heterosexual. Would you still be supportive of such a policy?
By the way, it isn't just certain parts of Europe. It's Canada, the vast majority of Western Europe, and recently, South Africa. And at the same time that same-sex marriage prohibitions are being enacted, more states--currently 27--are including protections for orientation in their civil rights legislation, and more are protecting for gender identity and expression--currently 8 and DC.
I'm thinking we'll be seeing widespread legalized gay marriage within ten to twenty years. The current legislation is the last gasp of a morally bankrupt idiology that will soon go the way of miscegenation and sodomy laws.
Gilda
"Tolerance and acceptance you must be patient for. Justice you should always demand now." ~forwarded from my sister in law
"When I was in the military they gave me a medal for killing two men and a discharge for loving one." ~From the tombstone of a gay Vietnam veteran
"Why can't they have gay people in the army? Personally, I think they are just afraid of a thousand guys with M16s going: Who'd you call a faggot?" ~ John Stewart
"Soldiers who are not afraid of guns, bombs, capture, torture or death say they are afraid of homosexuals. Clearly we should not be used as soldiers; we should be used as weapons." ~Letter to the editor, The Advocate