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Gilda · 06-29-2006, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

http://www.slate.com/id/2097048/#Return

I'm quite sure that you'll find that article interesting to read. You have both advocates and opponents of gay marriages alike questioning the validity of the studies done in the 70's, 80's and 90's. It's not a good sign when one of the major proponents of gay marriage rejects the studies which would help to strengthen her own cause. The "Actual evidence" upon which you rely, is largely in question by both sides alike.

Yes that was an interesting op ed piece, which cites a single critic of the research from "my side" and makes vague reference to "people behind the scenes". I tend to put little credence in what unsourced "people behind the scenes" say. I agree that more study needs to be done, which is really the point of that article.

However, an op ed piece and one cited critic are hardly "largely in question". In fact, the majority opinion of the major medical and psychological community on that research is that it does provide evidence that children of homosexuals fare about as well as those of heterosexuals.

Let's look at what the actual medical and mental health experts have to say on the matter, based on the currently available research:

American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry:

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The basis on which all decisions relating to custody and parental rights should rest on the best interest of the child. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals historically have faced more rigorous scrutiny than heterosexuals regarding their rights to be or become parents.

There is no evidence to suggest or support that parents with a gay, lesbian, or bisexual orientation are per se different from or deficient in parenting skills, child-centered concerns and parent-child attachments, when compared to parents with a heterosexual orientation. It has long been established that a homosexual orientation is not related to psychopathology, and there is no basis on which to assume that a parental homosexual orientation will increase likelihood of or induce a homosexual orientation in the child.

Outcome studies of children raised by parents with a homosexual or bisexual orientation, when compared to heterosexual parents, show no greater degree of instability in the parental relationship or developmental dysfunction in children.

The AACAP opposes any discrimination based on sexual orientation against individuals in regard to their rights as custodial or adoptive parents as adopted by Council."

American Academy of Pediatrics

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"Children deserve to know that their relationships with both of their parents are stable and legally recognized. This applies to all children, whether their parents are of the same or opposite sex. The American Academy of Pediatrics recognizes that a considerable body of professional literature provides evidence that children with parents who are homosexual can have the same advantages and the same expectations for health, adjustment, and development as can children whose parents are heterosexual.1-9 When 2 adults participate in parenting a child, they and the child deserve the serenity that comes with legal recognition.

"Children born or adopted into families headed by partners who are of the same sex usually have only 1 biologic or adoptive legal parent. The other partner in a parental role is called the "coparent" or "second parent." Because these families and children need the permanence and security that are provided by having 2 fully sanctioned and legally defined parents, the Academy supports the legal adoption of children by coparents or second parents. Denying legal parent status through adoption to coparents or second parents prevents these children from enjoying the psychologic and legal security that comes from having 2 willing, capable, and loving parents.

"Several states have considered or enacted legislation sanctioning second-parent adoption by partners of the same sex. In addition, legislative initiatives assuring legal status equivalent to marriage for gay and lesbian partners, such as the law approving civil unions in Vermont, can also attend to providing security and permanence for the children of those partnerships.

"Many states have not yet considered legislative actions to ensure the security of children whose parents are gay or lesbian. Rather, adoption has been decided by probate or family courts on a case-by-case basis. Case precedent is limited. It is important that a broad ethical mandate exist nationally that will guide the courts in providing necessary protection for children through coparent adoption.

"Coparent or second-parent adoption protects the child's right to maintain continuing relationships with both parents. The legal sanction provided by coparent adoption accomplishes the following:

"1. Guarantees that the second parent's custody rights and responsibilities will be protected if the first parent were to die or become incapacitated. Moreover, second-parent adoption protects the child's legal right of relationships with both parents. In the absence of coparent adoption, members of the family of the legal parent, should he or she become incapacitated, might successfully challenge the surviving coparent's rights to continue to parent the child, thus causing the child to lose both parents.

"2. Protects the second parent's rights to custody and visitation if the couple separates. Likewise, the child's right to maintain relationships with both parents after separation, viewed as important to a positive outcome in separation or divorce of heterosexual parents, would be protected for families with gay or lesbian parents.

"3. Establishes the requirement for child support from both parents in the event of the parents' separation.

"4. Ensures the child's eligibility for health benefits from both parents.

"5. Provides legal grounds for either parent to provide consent for medical care and to make education, health care, and other important decisions on behalf of the child.

"6. Creates the basis for financial security for children in the event of the death of either parent by ensuring eligibility to all appropriate entitlements, such as Social Security survivors benefits.

"On the basis of the acknowledged desirability that children have and maintain a continuing relationship with 2 loving and supportive parents, the Academy recommends that pediatricians do the following:

* Be familiar with professional literature regarding gay and lesbian parents and their children.
* Support the right of every child and family to the financial, psychologic, and legal security that results from having legally recognized parents who are committed to each other and to the welfare of their children.
* Advocate for initiatives that establish permanency through coparent or second-parent adoption for children of same-sex partners through the judicial system, legislation, and community education."

American Medical Association

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“Whereas, Having two fully sanctioned and legally defined parents promotes a safe and nurturing environment for children, including psychological and legal security; and

"Whereas, Children born or adopted into families headed by partners who are of the same sex usually have only one biologic or adoptive legal parent; and

"Whereas, The legislative protection afforded to children of parents in homosexual relationships varies from state to state, with some states enacting or considering legislation sanctioning co-parent or second parent adoption by partners of the same sex, several states declining to consider legislation, and at least one state altogether banning adoption by the second parent; and

"Whereas, Co-parent or second parent adoption guarantees that the second parent’s custody rights and responsibilities are protected if the first parent dies or becomes incapacitated; and

"Whereas, Co-parent or second parent adoption ensures the child’s eligibility for health benefits from both parents and establishes the requirement for child support from both parents in the event of the parents’ separation; and

"Whereas, Co-parent or second parent adoption establishes legal grounds to provide consent for medical care and to make health care decisions on behalf of the child and guarantees visitation rights if the child becomes hospitalized; and

"Whereas, The American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychiatric Association have each issued statements supporting initiatives which allow same-sex couples to adopt and co-parent children; therefore be it

"RESOLVED, That our American Medical Association support legislative and other efforts to allow the adoption of a child by the same-sex partner, or opposite sex non-married partner, who functions as a second parent or co-parent to that child. (New HOD Policy)”

American Psychoanalytic Association

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"The American Psychoanalytic Association supports the position that the salient consideration in decisions about parenting, including conception, child rearing, adoption, visitation and custody is the best interest of the child. Accumulated evidence suggests the best interest of the child requires attachment to committed, nurturing and competent parents. Evaluation of an individual or couple for these parental qualities should be determined without prejudice regarding sexual orientation. Gay and lesbian individuals and couples are capable of meeting the best interest of the child and should be afforded the same rights and should accept the same responsibilities as heterosexual parents. With the adoption of this position statement, we support research studies that further our understanding of the impact of both traditional and gay/lesbian parenting on a child's development.

American Psychological Association

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“WHEREAS APA supports policy and legislation that promote safe, secure and nurturing environments for all children (DeLeon, 1993, 1995; Fox, 1991; Levant, 2000);

“WHEREAS APA has a long-established policy to deplore ‘all public and private discrimination against gay men and lesbians’ and urges ‘the repeal of all discriminatory legislation against lesbians and gay men’ (Conger, 1975);

“WHEREAS the APA adopted the Resolution on Child Custody and Placement in 1976 (Conger, 1977, p. 432);

“WHEREAS Discrimination against lesbian and gay parents deprives their children of benefits, rights and privileges enjoyed by children of heterosexual married couples;

“WHEREAS Some jurisdictions prohibit gay and lesbian individuals and same-sex couples from adopting children, notwithstanding the great need for adoptive parents (Lofton v. Secretary, 2004);

“WHEREAS There is no scientific evidence that parenting effectiveness is related to parental sexual orientation: lesbian and gay parents are as likely as heterosexual parents to provide supportive and healthy environments for their children (Patterson, 2000, 2004; Perrin, 2002; Tasker, 1999);

“WHEREAS Research has shown that the adjustment, development and psychological well-being of children is unrelated to parental sexual orientation and that the children of lesbian and gay parents are as likely as those of heterosexual parents to flourish (Patterson, 2004; Perrin, 2002; Stacey & Biblarz, 2001);

“THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED That the APA opposes any discrimination based on sexual orientation in matters of adoption, child custody and visitation, foster care and reproductive health services;”

“THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED That the APA believes that children reared by a same-sex couple benefit from legal ties to each parent;

“THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED That the APA supports the protection of parent-child relationships through the legalization of joint adoptions and second parent adoptions of children being reared by same-sex couples;

“THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED That APA shall take a leadership role in opposing all discrimination based on sexual orientation in matters of adoption, child custody and visitation, foster care and reproductive health services;

“THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED That APA encourages psychologists to act to eliminate all discrimination based on sexual orientation in matters of adoption, child custody and visitation, foster care, and reproductive health services in their practice, research, education and training (Ethical Principles, 2002, p. 1063);

“THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED That the APA shall provide scientific and educational resources that inform public discussion and public policy development regarding discrimination based on sexual orientation in matters of adoption, child custody and visitation, foster care and reproductive health services and that assist its members, divisions and affiliated state, provincial, and territorial psychological associations.”

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There is concrete evidence proving that a child does better in a situation which involves bother a mother and a father. There is no evidence (Which isn't under question), that refutes that claim.

"Prove" is a tricky word, especially in psychology. What you have when conducting psychological studies is evidence leading to or supporting a conclusion.

You have an incomplete comparison there: "a child does better". You've left off the other end because the studies you are referring to don't compare heterosexual families to those headed by same sex couples, and thus are not valid evidence in this debate (and contain their own flaws, but that's a separate debate). Those studies that do make such comparisons conclude that no harm has come to the children of homosexual parents.

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Yes, that child would deserve stability.

You ignore the crux of my argument there. If one of the core purposes of marriage is to provide a stable environment for the rearing of children--and I agree that that is one purpose, though hardly the only one--then don't those children being raised by homosexual couples deserve the same familial stability and legally protected relationship with both of their parents as those being raised by heterosexual couples?

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But-- And I hate to be a broken record-- The majority of the claims which you assert as true aren't, because they are under heavy fire from both sides. If you can show me a study that proves your claims which aren't disputed by your own side, then I'll concede the point.

First, I've never claimed anything was "true" or that the studies "prove" anything. I've consistently said that the evidence shows that children of homosexuals turn out fine, which it does.

Second, you exaggerate. The studies cited are not "under heavy fire" from both sides. Supporters of gay marriage and gay adoption are not generally challenging the conclusions of those studies, and the concensus of the mainstream medical and psychological community is that such studies provide evidence to support the conclusion that homosexual parents do not harm their children by being homosexual. This conclusion has changed over time to match the evidence as it comes in, by the way, which gives it more weight. Has it been proven conclusively? Of course not. Nothing in psychology ever is. However, that's where the best evidence available points at the moment. I agree completely that more study is needed.

My therapist was telling me during my last meeting that there's some new anectodal evidence that gay male couples are actually better parents than lesbians or heterosexual couples, though the sample sizes are a bit too small, and it may be due to factors not primarily related to their sexuality. In essense, because gay male couples have the most difficulty becoming parents of any of the studied structures, they have to be much more committed to the idea of being parents than lesbians or heterosexual couples, and thus begin with the advantage that unwanted parenthood has been selected out. That's a tangent, though I did find it interesting and passed it off to one of the gay male couples at church who have two boys of their own. Adorable kids, too.

Third, that a claim has been challenged does not mean it isn't supported by the evidence.

Fourth, disproving one claim does not mean that the opposite is true. All of the studies on point that I've seen support the conclusion that children of homosexuals are about as healthy as those of heterosexuals. More study is needed, definitely.

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I never said it would prevent heterosexuals from raising their children. I'm not exactly sure as to what your point is...

You object to gay marriage on the basis that one of the core purposes of marriage was providing a stable environment for the rearing of children. I fail to see how allowing gay marriage would in any way interfere with that purpose for marriage, and think it would actually support it. Heterosexual couples would still have the stability provided by marriage, and homosexual couples and their children would have it also. More stability for families, not less.

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All right. Even though I don't agree with the term being used in this case, I will refer to her as your wife.

Thank you for the concession. What exactly is your objection?

For the record, I'm a Christian, and Grace and I were married, twice actually, once by a Unitarian minister (for us) and once by a Shinto priest (for her family), and our marriage is recognized and accepted by the UU church of which we are members.

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I don't know where you get that assumption from, but I never made any such suggestion.

You did so with me and with my marriage, suggesting that, though I'm already married in a spiritual and religious sense, because I'm interested in the legal ramifications of a civil marriage, that means that my marriage isn't motivated by love. I believe Charlatan was equating his marriage to mine, in that both are marriages that are not legal civil marriages, which means that your objections to my marriage would apply equally to his.

Charlatan, if that was not your meaning, I apologize in advance for speaking for you and for misinterpreting you.

Gilda