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Originally Posted by filtherton
I've actually discussed it quite extensively.
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Yes, you have. But "Whether you think that is justified doesn't matter at all to me" would seem to suggest a shift. I could've misinterpreted it.
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Actually, for me it is axiomatic. If someone tells me that gay marriage is wrong then i assume that they are a bigot. If we get to talking and it turns out that they were just using flawed logic, well, they aren't a bigot anymore. That doesn't mean my basic assumption was wrong. It just means that they got talked out of being a bigot.
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You can define bigotry that broadly if you want, but you're left with a bigotry that is not necessarily malevolent and not necessarily dishonest. In fact, the only negative characteristic I could definitively assign to this bigotry is ignorance.
I don't find much value to this use of the word, but to each his own.
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Then it should all come out in the wash. In my experience it really never does, but i concede that it might happen.
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The wash needs to be a clean wash. If you're labeling the washee a bigot from the onset, or if you don't do a very good job of refuting the arguments, or if you're antagonistic in some other way, it's like doing the wash with dirty water. I've seen this happen too many times. People aren't perfectly neutral, and bad or inflammatory arguments can poison them against a position that they might otherwise carefully consider.
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Most of them hate america too.
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And they kick puppies.
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Okay, i'll concede this point. People who believe faulty logic, yet don't actually do anything that is implied by their belief in that faulty logic aren't actually bigots. They have the potential to be bigots, but being a bigot requires activity beyond just believing something.
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To me, an essential ingredient of bigotry is disrespect, and I just don't see that in many of my friends/family who are opposed to same-sex marriage.
(To be clear, I
do see it in some of them, including a member of my immediate family. I'm not trying to pretend that it's all honest and respectful disagreement.)
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It may not appear so on the tfp, but i'm a pretty civil person when it comes to face to face time if i feel like the civility is reciprocal. Just because i think someone is ridiculously mistaken doesn't mean i treat them like a piece of shit.
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Yeah, I could've been clearer here. I wouldn't know how you treat the opposition, beyond the little you've said in this thread, and I didn't mean to imply that you treat them like shit. When I say that your mistake is more of a roadblock to civility than their mistake, I'm talking about the mistake of telling them they're bigots (when, imo, they're not). I see that as a bigger source of unfriendly situations than the mere declaration of opposition to same-sex marriage.
Of course, when one actually shows bigoted behavior (by my standards), then that's obviously the bigger problem by a few miles.