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Originally Posted by aceventura3
I am not saying the governemnt asking for and receiving the records is "so" harmless - I just ask the question about who was harmed and how? If I get a better understanding of that, then I can determine how to react. Looking at the big picture, if no one got hurt - I think government resources are better used fighting real crimes involving real victims.
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Let's put it this way. I am a freaking liberal in every sense of the words current incarnation. I am vehemently anti Bush, anti war, anti pretty much anything and everything the conservatives call their own. I don't do it out of spite or anything, it's simply a difference of princeples. I have, on many occasions, said that President George W. Bush should be impeached because of misleading congress into a war of aggression. Is it illegal to say this? Nope. What if I were Arab American and said this over a phone to a friend in Iraq? I would be put on a terrorist watch list, and could potentially be taken from my home or on vacation by American forces of some kind. It's happened before and is currently happening, BTW.
Until we see evidence that wire tapping and such has stopped any terrorism whatsoever, the excuse that it is to stop terrorism is not yet apt. It would not breach security to provide evidence to the AP that a terrorist plot was foiled by phone tapping and such, as everyone who doesn't live under a rock knows that the US government taps phones.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
I think the opposite is true. In order to remain individual in a representative democracy one has to forgo certain privacies. An extreme example - if you have a child, you can not keep its birth private, the community has a right to know and a right to know if your the Dad, can't keep that private either, and a right to take money out of your check to support the child if needed, therfore you can't keep your income private. Also being in a representative democracy requires certain sacrifices for the good of the whole at the expense of the individual (I think that saying was in a Star Trek movie - but its true)
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"The good of the many outweighs the good of the few." -Spock, Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Kahn
Excellent movie. The problem is that this wire tapping program benifits the few who hold office, and is detrimental to those who are not. The fact that we live in a democracy shows that we are willing to have slightly less security in order to remain free. Frankly, we could live in a completly secure and safe society if we did away with the Bill of Rights. Can you imagine how many criminals we could catch if we didn't need warrents? Can you imagine how easy it would be to control a society if there wasn't free press? The problem is that the loss of these freedoms IS harmful to all free people.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
If the info was so private and so valuable to the individual why was the infor given to the phone company? For those who really want privacy, don't use a common carrier. I don't think 99.9999% of the population cares what AT&T does with the records of phone calls made and recieved
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I expect AT&T to have some backbone and stand up for it's customers, like Google. If 99.9999% of society doesn't care, then why is it all over the news that AT&T is doing this?
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
Before I worry about phone records, I want to stop: Speed traps/red light cameras/sting operations/IRS audits/payroll tax deductions/spam/etc./etc/etc
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Actually income taxes are illegal, but that's for an entirely different thread. Speed traps, red light cameras, sting operations, etc. are all proven methods of deterring, preventing, or catching criminals. There is no evidence that gaining access to my phone records without either my permission or a court order is in any way effective.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
I would never assume any phone conversation/email/public comment/written communication is "safe". With today's technology anyone can being in on just about everything I do and say. The only real safety is that - nobody really cares. However, if I started talking or writing about doing something against a "high value" target, today, at somepoint it is going to get someone's attension.
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Don't let the fear in the house, it brings bad company.
We should be able to live in a society that values freedom and security working in tandum. When one side gets too powerful, it means trouble for everyone.