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Originally Posted by docbungle
Pardon? I addressed your entire post with a few sentences, out of respect for our completely different views on the matter. But by all means, we can't have you wasting energy.
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I was a little put off when you said that my outlook is bleak and then assumed that my everyday life has a draining effect on me. Now I don't know you very well, but neither do you know me, so to make that one thing clear- my life is very enjoyable. You're almost making me wish you were in my shoes. But I digress.
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Here is the detailed disagreement you require:
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Parents are so severely handicapped that they have no choice but to secede all parenting rights to various third parties.
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This is such a gross exaggeration I can't believe a response is expected. If you know parents - or if you are a parent - that gives over all parenting rights to "various third parties" then the problem is with the parent and not the third parties.
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What I meant to say is that they are disempowered. Not to the point where it becomes impossible to raise their child, but to a degree which makes it much more difficult.
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If you had a kid, how much time would you have to be there during the days when he or she needs your attention? Not much, I'd bet-
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Again, are you serious? When you have a kid, time is spent with the kid, as opposed to just about everything else. If not, then again the problem is with the parent. But you suppose "not much."
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Well that's assuming the time spent with the kid is actually time spent parenting the kid. Some parents really don't have a clue, they think being around their kid is enough to raise them.
Now yeah, that is the fault of the parent; but that doesn't make it some excuse to let people legislate whatever crap they want for all the wrong reasons. It
should mean that we would be putting things into place to actually help parents raise their kids right.
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especially if you wanted your kid to get all those expensive advantages in life. What's all that stuff being advertised on TV that your kids need or will beg for? Diapers. Hot-wheels cars. Barbie dolls. Clothes. Cell-phones. Computers. PS3's. The videogames that go along with them. Bread & butter. Sunny-D. Braces. Proactiv. Soft-contact lenses. Post-secondary tuition fees. Cars
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Materialistic parents will breed materialistic children. If you don't know how to tell your kid "No" then you need some more practice before having children. Kids wanting everything they see on tv is nothing new. My parents never let it ruin their lives, did yours? As for the diapers and braces and whatnot: don't have kids if you can't afford diapers. It sounds like you're just complaining about how expensive kids are. You're right; they are, but it helps if you don't buy them everything they see on tv.
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If you think I'm simply complaining about how expensive it is to raise a child, you're missing my point. That is, because it's expensive, that means you have to be out working. If you don't make an income that is adequate enough, that means you have to work more, or get the proper training. If you're too dense to actually pass the training courses, that means you are basically stuck with spending more time at work and less time at home. That means that something has to take your place when you're out at work.
So, this might not be a problem for people who make a decent enough income to provide for their children with less hours worked and more hours available to spend with their child- but for people who don't have that kind of luxury it becomes a problem.
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Something we agree on.
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Again, we agree.
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No conflicts here!
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To the point where you can't be there to provide the psychological support for your kids
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Now we're back on track, disagreeing whole-heartedly. How you make this connection is beyond me. I'm sure there are people like this, and I feel bad for their kids, but they're certainly not the majority of parents, and I'm certainly not one of them. If you don't have the time to offer the support for your kids that they need, then you're not being a good parent. There is no one else to blame.
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Right, you're not one of them, so you don't have a problem with it. So what if they're not the majority? Is that the greatness of democracy? If 51% of the population decides to piss on the other 49%, then that's okay? Would it be okay if the split was 75% versus 25%? 95% versus 5%?
"If you don't have the time to offer the support for your kids that they need, then you're not being a good parent."
Really?
In every case that ever occured? This is some sort of universal truth? So for some reason, if someone is handicapped, we can't offer them our sympathies and help them in any way or show compassion, because it's their fault. This ends up as contempt for the weak.
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Daycare. Nannies. Private Schools. Public Schools. Extra-curricular activities. Day-time cartoons. Night-time cartoons. It grows on itself so much that even the advertisements for all those toys begin to tell your kids how to behave.
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School is a part of life. We all went through it. Extra curricular activities are supposed to be fun. If they're not, find some that are. Cartoons have a part in most kids' life, I know they did in mine. I see nothing sinister here. And when toy commercials start telling your kids how to behave, I'd say it's time to spend some time with them instead of sitting them down in front of the television all day. You know, offer some psychological support.
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Yeah, if they even know that this is what they're supposed to do, or if they have a chance of influencing them to the point where what they say is more important than what the idiot-tube suggests. For the ones that don't have that kind of opportunity, there needs to be some measure to either give them the mobility to move up the chain, or there should be some measure to protect them. In many cases neither of those things are provided.
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This is what your kids are raised on.
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I beg to differ. You're confusing my kids with someone who doesn't know how to raise them.
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If you speak the truth then I'm glad that I'm in the wrong about that.
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You want to talk about conservative? I'm a frickin' conservative. I don't think people should have that much control over how your kids are raised. So when someone calls themself a conservative and supports promoting abstinence and only abstinence, one of the grounds of that being that the parents just aren't competent to raise their kids, I get infuriated. Call yourself a conservative if you like. I don't want to offend you but rather shock you into thinking about the bigger picture for a bit- so don't take it personally when I say that I think what you say is ignorant.
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Well, I'm not a conservative. Don't really know what you're trying to say here. You seem to be implying that "conservatives" have some nerve, and are telling parents that they don't know how to raise their own kids...while at the same time saying that...parent's don't have the time or the energy to raise their own kids...
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No, what I'm saying is that conservatism should not translate to shortsightedness and an unconscious unwillingness to see the facts for what they are when policies like sex education that emphasizes only abstinence and undermines contraception are being promoted.
As does yours elude me.
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Now, why would you not be up in arms about this?
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About what? I still don't see what the problem is. Someone is telling kids to not have sex before marriage. You are saying that is unrealistic and what they should be saying is: "If you have sex, wear protection." I don't see a problem with either viewpoint. They are both good bits of advice. But that is where actually being a parent comes into play. Either be one, or hand the duties off to "third parties" and hope for the best. And then wonder why you have no control over your child as they grow.
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No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying if there is going to be institutionalized sex education, it should tell those kids that abstinence is the safest bet, but it should also tell them that if they do decide to have sex, it's absolutely critical to use contraceptives. Then again I don't have to worry, because that's exactly what happens here in Canada. I just think Americans deserve better.
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It's easy to ignore it, sure. It's like holding someones head down in the water while they drown and saying it's their own fault they can't swim. It doesn't matter, because they are being forced into drowning. This is not about empowering the parents at all.
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If you are comparing drowning to unprotected sex, I'm going to have to disagree with you some more. Teaching abstinece does not force kids to have unprotected sex. Being a parent that doesn't discuss important topics
such as sex, drugs and all that jazz with their children is what leads to
unprotected sex.
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If you think that's what I'm saying then you need to read what I wrote again.
I'm saying tell a parent that it's their fault they can't raise their kids right because of factors that are virtually out of their control- I'm saying
that is like forcing someones head in the water and blaming them for being unable to swim. That's the kind of obliviousness it takes to argue for sex education that says nothing about contraception and only tells the kids what abstinence is.
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So is the government-industrial complex going to teach your kids how to act or are you? Is it even a choice at this point?
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Isn't that what I said in the first place? For some, life is what you make it. For others, life is what they tell you it is. 
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From what I gathered you basically said that it's okay to not give two shits about the guy under the weather!
All that said, I'm out of this whole thing, I've got work to do.