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Originally Posted by abaya
Well, we agree that it is one of the secondary choices that one should be free to make *after* getting pregnant. However, I would say that the really responsible thing to do would have been to not take the risk of getting pregnant in the first place.
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i agree with you here for the most part. the responsible thing to do is practice safe sex. make it so that the only times when an abotion should even need to be considered is when there's either a freak accident (if she's on the pill and he's wearing a condom, pregnancy should be rare) or when rape/incest occurs. but it almost sounds like you're talking about abstenance. which, while great in theory, it's a lot like communism, doesn't do so well in the real world.
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Originally Posted by abaya
However, I don't dispute you on that point. What I disagree with is the idea that a woman has no choice when getting pregnant in the first place. Women do have responsibility, they do have the power (again, unless poor/uneducated) to use birth control correctly, to ask their partner to use condoms, and to even practice abstinence if all else fails.
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i've never said women have no choice in getting pregnant. i highly doubt most woman having sex, whether with their boyfriend or a one night stand, are thinking "gee, i do sure hope i get preggers tonight!". both women and men have the responsibility of taking precautions. but shit happens, that's life.
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Originally Posted by abaya
To say that making abortion illegal would be forcing women to do something they don't want to do may be correct, but it ignores the logical precedence that a woman chose to take the risk of getting pregnant in the first place. I would guess that very few instances of abortion involve a woman feeling "forced" to have risky sex and get pregnant. It is still a choice.
I cannot logically be pro-choice about women getting rid of pregnancies without also being pro-choice about women preventing a pregnancy. That's all.
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any time you do anything, there can be unintended consequences. all we can ask is that people try to be smart and take precautions. not all of them do though... which is why we need to be teaching sex ed. there shouldn't be people out there who aren't educated about the risks of sex (std's and pregnancy). we as a society should be teaching safe sex, but not everyone gets it. but the ability to have an abortion needs to be an option for when an unwanted preganancy does occur.
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Originally Posted by FoolThemAll
A) It's not wrong to prohibit a means to a legitimate end when the means is insufficiently justified. You shouldn't thwart a pickpocketer by killing him, to use an extreme example. If a woman could escape a pregnancy without killing a human being, or if the justification was sufficient (i.e. saving her life), then it would be wrong to "force a woman to carry a child".
B) Yes, it's not a viable being yet. So?
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a) if you are going to be prohibiting something, the onus is on you to justify the prohibition. you have to justify why a group of cells should have rights over the body of woman. why the incubated should have rights over the incubator. you have to justify turning a living, breathing, independent woman into a forced incubator.
b) so? so why should a non-viable group of undeveloped cells take precedence over a woman?
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Originally Posted by pinkie
It always amazes me how so many people choose to think of "the beginning of human life" as simply, "a group of insignificant cells."
Life is life.
Killing is killing.
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who says the cells are insignifcant? but that doesn't make them more important than the woman carrying them.
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Originally Posted by pinkie
Humans do not equal vegetables, cattle or birds.
We eat food out of necessity.
People abort out of convenience.
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i think if you looked into abortion a bit beyond the superficial layer, you'd find woman abort for many, many reasons and most are not for 'convenience.'
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Originally Posted by highthief
what exactly did you learn about the development of babies changed your mind?
How the brain develops, the rate of growth, the physical transformation. It all happens much earlier than we previously thought.
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thank you. i disagree with you as to whether abortion should be legal and easily accessable, but i respect your opinion.
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Originally Posted by highthief
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Originally Posted by me
1) do you realize how many different medical complications (life threatening and non) can come with preganancy? and that's not too mention the hormonal swings, physical discomforts, wierd food cravings, relationship complications, post-partum depression, etc, that a woman will go through (or may, depending on which thing). to force that on a woman who doesn't want it... you may as well lock her in a cell and torture her for 9 months. personally, i prefer my women to be incubators by choice, not force.
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All of which is easily outweighed by the fact that taking the innocent life of a baby is about a million times worse than anything you just described. |
here's part of the problem... you view it as 'taking the innocent life of a baby.' i view it as 'removing cells that one day could develop into a baby. which is probably the main reason this is such a horrible debate. there is no one frame of reference.
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Originally Posted by highthief
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Originally Posted by me
2) most people adopting want new borns. what happens when there are more new borns then people want to adopt? and then think about the older kids that people aren't taking. what about them? is brining kids up in the foster system really fair to the kids? and why should my taxes pay for your mistake for 18 years?
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I think we can cross that bridge when we come to it - right now there is a dearth of adoptable newborns, which is why people are going to China and Russia to adopt children. |
people are going to china and russia not because there aren't enough children looking to be adopted, it's because there aren't enough a) white kids to be adopted and b) adoption in america is a pain in the ass. it's a lot easier to go out of the country. i read an article a few months ago how not only were black kids in america being adopted by foreigners much more than americans are adopting them, but there has also been legislation (not sure if it was in the development stage or going through the system yet) to make that illegal. we have the kids, we just don't have people wanting to adopt our kids.
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Originally Posted by highthief
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Originally Posted by me
3) if you had them get sterilized after it, that's the same as murder. if they want to have kids one day, but are not ready yet (and that's why they'd have prefered an abortion to forced preganancy + adoption), then by sterilizing them you're pre-emptively killing any future children she planned on having.
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Not even close; no life was taken in this example you provide. That's like saying every time you jack off you're killing thousands of unborn children. |
i'm sorry, but you're wrong. the only difference between an abortion and forced sterilization is that one is stopped pre-fertilization and the other post-fertilization. in both cases, left alone, a child would be born. if a woman wants to have 3 kids, and you sterilize her before she has any, you are keeping 3 kids from being born. if she got pregnant 3 times and you made her abort them, you are keeping three kids from being born. sterilization is just one logical step ahead of abortion. at least abortion has the benefit of allowing the woman to have a child at a later date when she's ready and wants one.
jerking off isn't murder because those sperm weren't intended to be used for making babies. sterilization keeps ovum (planned for fertilization) from being used to make babies. notice a difference in the intent?