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Originally Posted by smooth
dksuddeth,
when you make replies like the one you gave me, it makes me pause and wonder whether we should continue discussing larger, abstract ideals before making sure we've got the facts/premises correct.
I know your view on how the constitution was drafted, and the values underpinning it, are popular in the mythology of our nation (and the use of "myth" doesn't necessarily imply non-factual), but let's start from point one:
how many framers do you think were involved in drafting the 2nd amendment?
how many people did it take to ratify it?
what kind of connections can you objectively make between the people who wrote a particular phrase (the "framers") and those who passed it into law (the "ratifiers")?
that is, assuming you are correct that "MOST" framers believed what you attributed to them, does that necessarily imply that the ratifiers believed it, as well.
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If the framers/founders/ratifiers/anyone else submitted that the individual man did NOT have an individual and god given right to keep and bear arms, i've not ever seen the quote or statement in any of the historical documents. Not the virginia bill of rights debates, the federalist papers, or the constitution convention. In fact, in the entire time I have studied/read/debated about the original intent of the founders concerning the constitution and the bill of rights, nowhere have I ever even heard of someone declaring that there is no individual god given right to bear arms and that it only applies to state sponsored/organized/maintained militias. If there is, it's a secret thats been very well kept.
If, as you infer, that throughout the years of debate that the second amendment was referred to as an individual right but the 'ratifiers' considered it otherwise, I've seen no proof of that either and without any proof of that specific belief, it would be beyond extremely difficult to accept that the representatives of the people played that kind of a joke upon them.