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Originally Posted by boatin
There's a lot of different thoughts going on in this thread, but to start with one...
I see you saying a number of things (pardon me for simplfying):
-illegals are illegal, therefore we should find a way to get rid of them
-illegals commit crimes, and then escape back south, so we should find a way to keep em out to avoid this
-illegals cost us taxpayers money so we should find a way to keep em out
-illegals expect more than equal services, and they pay nothing, it's not fair and we should find a way to keep em out
Again, sorry if that's a ridiculous oversimplification of your points - my getting those right or wrong doesn't really impair the point *I'm* trying to make:
I think there are a lot of valid arguments about immigration. I can agree or disagree with any of them, as can anyone of course. But the argument that means absolutely nothing to me is the "it's illegal, therefore it's illegal" line. Of the 4 things I threw down at the start of this post the last 3 are things I think could be rationally discussed.
The first bit of reasoning is junk logic to me. It's been used as a 'reason' for the some of the most horrific events in history. And a huge number of more mundane, but no less wrong events. From not employing Jews, to prohibition, to the things I mentioned in an earlier post (prostitution, pot, etc), it's held up as a reason things shouldn't happen. Hard for me to use a line of reasoning that has been shown as wrong so often. Right/wrong is ultimately a better line of reasoning than legal/illegal.
My long winded point is: why not argue about the issues - try to convince others that the costs of illegals outweigh the benefits, make the moral arguement, or whatever.
Adult Learning Theory suggests that the best way to convince an adult is to explain, not tell. And to repeatably say 'they're illegal, they should go' doesn't advance the logic, and actually does more to convince me the other way.
But maybe that's just me.
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I did argue along that basis but I'll give you the same argument again:
ILLEGAL Immigration supporters say that the vast majority come over to "help their families because they are poor and starving and the US gives them the oppurtunity to feed their families."
Ok using that argument let's say...... I worked for a big company made VERY good money but was downsized and found the savings went fast. I couldn't find a job, because at 40 no one wants to give you a shot.
I have a wife and 4 kids, and we are extremely hungry and poor. So I go and steal some food to feed my family.... nothing more than FOOD. There's plenty of it, Hell, Americans waste more food than most other nations will see in a week. But I get caught.
Now do you think the judge should let me go?
I increased costs, because the store and manufacturer have to make up for the loss of their goods. I burdened the taxpayers, because I am taking up courtroom time, the taxes lost on the sale, the taxes for the police that caught me, and so on.
Now let's argue this point:
You say the most cases you saw are 50 of ILLEGALS coming across murdering someone and going back across the border. I say the ILLEGALS probably have killed many more, and even just 1 is too many considering they were here illegally. But you say you can live with the just 50 you saw and don't believe there's more.
So one day your family goes out and a couple of ILLEGALS are out to rob the 7-11 your wife walked into. they get scared and blow everyone away. The police find out who they are from the surveillence cams and witnesses but cannot bring to justice those ILLEGALS because they jumped the border.
A year later, you find out that those same ILLEGALS are back in town working again, but the police can't do anything because there is no hard proof they were the ones.
They then go out again, get drunk and kill a family in an accident.
They get treated at the hospital for free..... released on "bond" paid for by a schill for the company they work for so the company's name doen't get involved in anyway. And they are back in Mexico in no time.
Yeah, it's a hypothetical here, but it has happened.
Who are you to tell the families that the crimes have happened to, that these crimes are rare and that ILLEGALS should be embraced and cared for and allowed here.
There are very small groups that are in support of ILLEGALS they are:
- Businesses who get the cheap labor and exploit them
- the unions who believe if we give them amnesty they can be unionized and bring the unions back to strength (of course the unions refuse to truly try to work hard to evolutionize and recruit on their own merits)
- some DEMS and some GOP who each believe that if they can somehow show support for the ILLEGALS and make it easier they'll get the important Hispanic voting block.
Who disagrees and sees the tax burden and the overall cost of ILLEGALS as deplorable and too expensive...... last poll I saw was 75% of the country (Both GOP and DEMS almost equally share this view. It isn't a partisan view.)
SO until the HUGE majority is overcome and changes their minds..... the government needs to respect the wishes of the people and be responsive and make it harder for ILLEGAL immigration and severely punish those that do so that fewer are tempted to cross.
Others have argued LAWS ARE LAWS and ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL.
I cannot go into court and say "Gee Judge, I admit I was doing 80 in a 35 but man that law is just wrong and I refuse to honor it because well I am a man and I can do what I want."
I can't go into court and say, "I refuse to honor and respect any law I deem is just wrong. Sure 75% think the law should be stronger but Judge, I am one who finds the law invasive and wrong."
AFter being hauled away and having the warden thrown away, maybe someone will point out: "if you don't like a law, don't break it.... work to reform it."