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Originally Posted by boatin
Can't argue with the definition of a word.  I would say that there are a number of things that are illegal that shouldn't be. And I'd bet you'd even agree. We can make any manner of "illegal" drugs legal as pharmecuticals, but somehow can't with cannabis. Prostitution is on my list in this category, so are some traffic laws. My point here is that we break/skirt/ignore many laws as a society. I can't back the logic of "it's the law, therefore I support it" without being a hypocrit. I need better reasons than that. And I haven't even touched the whole Civil Disobediance aspect of this - which ultimately may be more appropriate. Short version: this 'argument' holds no water for me. |
There's a big difference between speeding and crossing the border illegally.
You say the argument holds no water for you, and I say that it does for me.
To me every ILLEGAL thumbs his nose at our country's laws and at those who did work hard to become legal.
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I'm not sure hiring illegals is a felony. For the sake of this, I'll believe you, however. If so, are you saying that we should spend the law enforcement time/money to enforce this? Because without that focus, nothing is going to change. With that focus, other things will get lost in the cracks. Is that exchange worth it to you?
Assuming it IS a felony, I might actually be in favor of that type of prosecution. That might be the only way to highlight the issue of how much of our economy would grind to a halt without this labor. That would be a real eye opener! And that's the real problem I see with the 'keep em out' strategy.
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It would be a great deterrent and a way to keep businesses from hiring ILLEGALS. I seriously doubt that this would "halt labor" but I'm willing to take the chance.
I am not advocating a "Keep them out" I am advocating a "keep out the lowlifes that want us to change our way of life, our language and our laws to suit them."
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Couldn't agree more. I'd go so far as to say ANY option to fix the problem is on the table, for me. And that includes amnesty. Better to fix it at that cost, then not fix it at all. I see no reason to cut off our nose to spite our face.
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Amnesty won't work, and how many do you amnesty every single one of them? When and where do you stop? You are just inviting more in and you are pissing off the vast majority of LEGAL TAX PAYING CITIZENS here. It just won't work and is not feasible.
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Not sure if this is a direct response to this comment or not, but:
illegals in this country do more good than harm. From construction to food production to many other industries, the benefits FAR outweigh the costs. I readily admit that is my subjective opinion, but living in a state that has a significant illegal population (Oregon), it's what I witness. I'd happily look at any studies that anyone could provide that might teach me otherwise. But in a game of 'he said/he said' I'm standing by my opinion.
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Soooooo you advocate the cheap labor and exploitation of ILLEGALS because it helps YOUR wallet.
But I'm the one involved in prejudice and class warfare???????
I see. So when they do become legal, through your amnesty program and thus have to make at least minimum wages and can join unions and so on and thus they start demanding to make more and prices skyrocket, then what?
Your wallet sees less green doesn't it? You end up having your hard earned tax paying dollars go to Bi-ligualize everything and since you showed them that "we are so forgiving if you break our laws" that they feel they can get away with anything then.
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Changing our laws contingent upon what other countries do seems counter productive to me. The United States has labor problems that immigrants (illegal or not) help solve. To resist fixing our problems because of a separate issue creates a bizarre and needless bottleneck. Labor issues and criminal issues are not connected, and shouldn't be tied together.
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I agree but ask the 1000's that have family members killed, raped, robbed and violated by illegals who simply cross back over to Mexico and face no justice.
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Furthermore, I question how large the criminal extradition problem is. Are we talking about more than 50 instances a year? 100? 10?
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Try 1000's and read the links I provided. 1 is too many. How many do you want?
I'm sure your attitude would change real fast if one of your close family members got violated or killed by an illegal only to know he went to Mexico and will probably crossover again.
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I'm sure in favor of any country working to better themselves. But I'm not holding up our progress as a country based on their actions. Why would you want to do that?
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How am I holding up the progress of our nation by not allowing ILLEGALS to be a part of it?
Again if Mexico is so bad there, then they should stay and work to change their own country, not come here use up our taxpaying resources, refuse to assimilate and sue our nation to suit their needs.
If they truly want to be here then they need to go through the processes legally and show that they respect us and our national cultures language and so on. But they flatly refuse to.
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Again you seem to be talking about changing our laws IF other things happen. How about we change our laws because we have a problem that needs fixing?
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And what problem is it that we need fixed? Immigrants MUST learn our language and history before they become legal?
I see so we need to change laws for ILLEGAL immigrants needs not those of our country's citizens.
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And I'm not really seeing the "bowing down" thing. At all. I believe if someone is sick, a hospital should treat them. If that makes our costs go up because they can't pay, I'm prepared to live with that. Not only do the benefits of this massive labor force outweigh those costs, but I believe that's the humane thing to do. I'm not turning away sick people because they can't pay. I would need to see examples of 'demands' and 'bowing down' to understand what you mean.
I would PREFER to have people be covered medically, and be able to pay. I'm not advocating a literal free for all. But let's reform the laws and remove the issue. I'm sure in favor of collecting more taxes.
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I see so where were you when I was in the hospital in October to pay the $25,000 medical bill that is destroying my credit? And I am sure there are many more hard working taxpayers that ask you the same question.
Meanwhile congress and the President signed into law a bill giving $1 BILLION of our tax dollars to hospitals to treat ILLEGALS for FREE!!!!!!
That's fair to me and this country how?????? OOOO life isn't fair you say but then in the next breath you say OUR LAWS aren't fair to the ILLEGALS.
I mean I'm legal, I was born here, my parents were born here, but I am not entitled to free medical because I was born here, meanwhile, ILLEGALS can get all the free medical attention they want. The tax dollars that could go into educating the youth so they can compete for better jobs, the money that could go into rebuilding the infrastructure and loans to businesses so that they can hire more people and jumpstart some economies goes to treating ILLEGALS. And you want me to believe that helps this country HOW????????
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The VAST majority of people that cross illegally are just as you describe. I say that with confidence, because the vast majority of people in the world are as you describe. People working here illegally are not not paying taxes because they are trying to cheat anyone, laughing manically about how sneaky they are; but because they are hiding and don't want to be sent back.
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No, I'm saying they refuse to learn our language, they refuse to learn our culture, they (even if it is a small minority) break our laws knowing they get off scotfree. They refuse to even try to be a positive in our society. They drain us of our tax resources and put nothing but cheap labor, a rise in crime and apathy and hatred into the system.
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We need the labor, and over the next 15 years as the boomers retire, we need a HUGE influx of labor. We have a problem, and it is only growing. We must find a way to fix this asap in a way that maximizes the amount of willing labor.
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Then we work on ways to increase the immigration laws to bring immigrants in legally.
How are we supposed to build a nation on people ILLEGALLY here that have no respect for our system.
I see they are cheap hard workers doing everything they can for a few pennies a day so that they can bring their families over ILLEGALLY. All the while refusing to learn our language, our history and expect us to accomodate them.
Meanwhile, people who come here LEGALLY, who have worked hard to learn our language, customs, history, traditions and laws, should have taken the easy route and just went to Mexico, jumped the border and have people crying to let them be treated as citizens without having had to show any work at all.
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I understand this concern, but I think it's overstated. Certainly there are criminals. There are people that use and abuse our medical systems. Certainly there are taxpayers that are turned away from services. There is no doubt that some systems are in financial trouble. But I doubt most vehemently that illegal immigrants are a significant causal issue for those last two items. They are a convenient scapegoat, however.
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Check out the websites I linked to, obviously you chose not too. I also refer to the above where i addressed this.
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The bulk of immigrants, illegal or not, are part of the solution. As they have been for 200+ years.
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And I have stated that LEGAL immigrants are the lifeblood of this great nation.
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It's certainly your right to refuse to talk about amnesty. Seems odd to devote so much time to a message thread when your mind is so solidly made up, however. But perhaps we can agree to disagree.
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Why? I believe that maybe someone who was thinking amnesty was ok, may have seen what I have written and done some researcg through the links or on their own and found that maybe amnesty isn't a good thing, maybe we do need to try to stop the flow of ILLEGALS.
And yes on this topic my mind is very closed, shut tight, locked and the warden's been thrown away.
It's exploitation of the illegal, exploitation and misuse of tax dollars that could help us in many other ways, and a thumbing of the nose to all that this country stands for and expects from people coming in.
Maybe you should go to Mexico illegally and see if any of your demands are met, or see how much of their tax dollars help you in a hospital, or see what they do to you.
How many ILLEGALS have given money to help the families in New Orleans? Or volunteering to help?
I am tired of how we cannot educate and give to our own people the rights and help we have to to other countries. Meanwhile, these other countries rarely give us anything but headaches. Maybe it's time we sat back, stopped giving any money to any of these countries and took care of our own house first.