boatin

Can't argue with the definition of a word. I would say that there are a number of things that are illegal that shouldn't be. And I'd bet you'd even agree. We can make any manner of "illegal" drugs legal as pharmecuticals, but somehow can't with cannabis. Prostitution is on my list in this category, so are some traffic laws. My point here is that we break/skirt/ignore many laws as a society. I can't back the logic of "it's the law, therefore I support it" without being a hypocrit. I need better reasons than that. And I haven't even touched the whole Civil Disobediance aspect of this - which ultimately may be more appropriate. Short version: this 'argument' holds no water for me.

I'm not sure hiring illegals is a felony. For the sake of this, I'll believe you, however. If so, are you saying that we should spend the law enforcement time/money to enforce this? Because without that focus, nothing is going to change. With that focus, other things will get lost in the cracks. Is that exchange worth it to you?

Assuming it IS a felony, I might actually be in favor of that type of prosecution. That might be the only way to highlight the issue of how much of our economy would grind to a halt without this labor. That would be a real eye opener! And that's the real problem I see with the 'keep em out' strategy.

Couldn't agree more. I'd go so far as to say ANY option to fix the problem is on the table, for me. And that includes amnesty. Better to fix it at that cost, then not fix it at all. I see no reason to cut off our nose to spite our face.

Not sure if this is a direct response to this comment or not, but:

illegals in this country do more good than harm. From construction to food production to many other industries, the benefits FAR outweigh the costs. I readily admit that is my subjective opinion, but living in a state that has a significant illegal population (Oregon), it's what I witness. I'd happily look at any studies that anyone could provide that might teach me otherwise. But in a game of 'he said/he said' I'm standing by my opinion.

Changing our laws contingent upon what other countries do seems counter productive to me. The United States has labor problems that immigrants (illegal or not) help solve. To resist fixing our problems because of a separate issue creates a bizarre and needless bottleneck. Labor issues and criminal issues are not connected, and shouldn't be tied together.

Furthermore, I question how large the criminal extradition problem is. Are we talking about more than 50 instances a year? 100? 10?

I'm sure in favor of any country working to better themselves. But I'm not holding up our progress as a country based on their actions. Why would you want to do that?

Again you seem to be talking about changing our laws IF other things happen. How about we change our laws because we have a problem that needs fixing?

And I'm not really seeing the "bowing down" thing. At all. I believe if someone is sick, a hospital should treat them. If that makes our costs go up because they can't pay, I'm prepared to live with that. Not only do the benefits of this massive labor force outweigh those costs, but I believe that's the humane thing to do. I'm not turning away sick people because they can't pay. I would need to see examples of 'demands' and 'bowing down' to understand what you mean.

I would PREFER to have people be covered medically, and be able to pay. I'm not advocating a literal free for all. But let's reform the laws and remove the issue. I'm sure in favor of collecting more taxes.

The VAST majority of people that cross illegally are just as you describe. I say that with confidence, because the vast majority of people in the world are as you describe. People working here illegally are not not paying taxes because they are trying to cheat anyone, laughing manically about how sneaky they are; but because they are hiding and don't want to be sent back.

We need the labor, and over the next 15 years as the boomers retire, we need a HUGE influx of labor. We have a problem, and it is only growing. We must find a way to fix this asap in a way that maximizes the amount of willing labor.

I understand this concern, but I think it's overstated. Certainly there are criminals. There are people that use and abuse our medical systems. Certainly there are taxpayers that are turned away from services. There is no doubt that some systems are in financial trouble. But I doubt most vehemently that illegal immigrants are a significant causal issue for those last two items. They are a convenient scapegoat, however.

The bulk of immigrants, illegal or not, are part of the solution. As they have been for 200+ years.

It's certainly your right to refuse to talk about amnesty. Seems odd to devote so much time to a message thread when your mind is so solidly made up, however. But perhaps we can agree to disagree.