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Originally Posted by xepherys
Incorrect. See, I'm all for the rights of businesses to do what they need to do. I think affirmative action type laws are ridiculous. I don't even really approve of minimum wage. HOWEVER, what is wrong with hiring illegal immigrants? Oh, that's right... it's ILLEGAL! That's what's wrong with it. On top of hiring undocumented workers being illegal, NOT paying taxes on behalf of those employees is illegal. The way I see it, there's much "wrong with that".
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Laws are laws - right? Wrong! I am not an anarchist and I obey laws, however, I try to understand the basis for our laws. If a law is flawed - I am vocal about changing it. I agree it is wrong to hire illegal immagrants - however I do support a guest worker program. As a business owner I should have the right to hire the labor I choose to hire.
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First, that's not a "free ride". Second, very rarely are all "other things ... equal" with a 100% price disparity. In fact, the cheap labor often comes with a usefulness price tag as well. My mother-in-law has a gardener that seems to be illegal (he comes through a crappy agency). The other landscaper-types that do work for her and the guys that mow and all do great work. This other guy, however, was "fired" by my M-I-L because he fucked up her roses, destroyed her trees with over pruning and other such issues. And he came at the price set by the agency. If a dealership charges $200 for something, and Jimmy Joe Bobs House of Auto Repair charges $100... I'll throw the extra $100 into going to the dealership to make sure my car works right.
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Not sure how that contradict my point. Consumers need to be active participants in a free market. Perhaps your MIL should have checked references, visited some of the gardener's other worksites, or even given him some kind of test of hi knowledge.
It is true most people don't make their final decision based exclusively on price. Personally, I almost never buy the "cheapest" item.
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Ah, such a great argument... except completley useless in this context. Things are significantly different now than they were then.
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You got me on the "things are significantly different now". I agree things are significantly different today. However, I will always be a student of history and its lessons. I like to think we can learn from the past - do you disagree with that?
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You can even see that, at that point in time, the benefits of slave ownership were STILL slimmer than they were during, say, the Roman Empire era. Nowadays, in western culture and western business, slaves and illegals don't help things along.
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Depends on your point of view doesn't it? It certainly benefits some, and costs others. Emperically I have to conclude the net is positive or the trend would be going away from using immigrant workers.
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The added benefit of cheap labor does not benefit the common man at all and really doesn't help the "upper echelon" the way it used to. You can argue that businesses see benefits from this, but do they really? Surely they pay their employees less, but are they as up to par? Do they do as good of work? Maybe not always... that has to cost a client here and there. What about word of mouth, either from that client or from people who won't buy services from people who USE illegal workers. It's not always obvious, but sometimes it is. Realistically, most (not all) larger companies would never touch such workers... I wonder why that it?! Oh, because it's ILLEGAL and also bad for business.
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Or, a larger company can just open a factory in Mexico. But that's not hiring "illegals" is it? But if they bused those worker into the US every day, that would be "illegal". Oh-I get it- big companies can play by a different set of rules. They do what is in their best interest and let everyone else play word games - "illegal"/"undocumented"/"guest"/"green card"/"501 CPO R2D2 Visas"/etc/etc.
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No, there's nothing cyclic about it. The usefulness of this type of business practice, as I noted above, has been shrinking for some 500 years easily. The industrial era broke it down even more rapidly and the digital era has pretty much put it's usefulness out to the curb entirely.
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Assuming you are correct - for something to shrink for 500 years - there had to be a period of growth. If there is growth and shrikage- some (including me) would call that a cycle. what do you call it?
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I agree... people should ALWAYS be honing their skills. But sometimes there's more than JUST the basis of skills. Skill level being the same, there are other things I look at, and price isn't the ONLY one.
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If you want to get paid - you have to have skills that are in demand and skills someone is willing to pay for. Certainly there are people who are getting exploited - but I guess exploitation avoidance is a skill too - one that is pretty valuable I might add.
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Well, maybe it doesn't help that they get their education without paying the taxes for it. Maybe it doesn't help that we cater to them to give them special classes in their native tongue. We bend over backwards, in many cases, to put them on par with legal citizens.
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American tax payers getting exploited. It is funny - but we think we are smarter than they are. Why we give them free anything is idiocy.