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Originally Posted by aceventura3
I am a "right-winger" and I argue that the wage suppression goes into the consumers pocket, or it generates more liesure time. The real question is what is the value of labor? If millions of "illegal immegrants" can do a job for less money than an American, what is wrong with that? Nothing.
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Incorrect. See, I'm all for the rights of businesses to do what they need to do. I think affirmative action type laws are ridiculous. I don't even really approve of minimum wage. HOWEVER, what is wrong with hiring illegal immigrants? Oh, that's right... it's ILLEGAL! That's what's wrong with it. On top of hiring undocumented workers being illegal, NOT paying taxes on behalf of those employees is illegal. The way I see it, there's much "wrong with that".
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
If you need your car repaired a person A charges $500 and person B charges $250, all other things being equal, why would you pay $500? You wouldn't. With the money saved, you can invest it for your future or you can use it to buy other good and services. Free markets work. The only people who don't like free markets are the one's who want a "free ride", i.e. pay me $500 for $250 worth of work.
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First, that's not a "free ride". Second, very rarely are all "other things ... equal" with a 100% price disparity. In fact, the cheap labor often comes with a usefulness price tag as well. My mother-in-law has a gardener that seems to be illegal (he comes through a crappy agency). The other landscaper-types that do work for her and the guys that mow and all do great work. This other guy, however, was "fired" by my M-I-L because he fucked up her roses, destroyed her trees with over pruning and other such issues. And he came at the price set by the agency. If a dealership charges $200 for something, and Jimmy Joe Bobs House of Auto Repair charges $100... I'll throw the extra $100 into going to the dealership to make sure my car works right.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
It did not hurt the economy when the South brought in millions of slaves. Did not hurt when millions of Europeans immigrated here. Currently, unemployment is at historic lows, anyone who wants a job can find one. Anyone who wants to improve their life has opportunity for education, vocational training or can start their own business. Home ownership is at an all time high, etc, etc. The economy is strong. In fact some could argue that without immigrant workers our economy would be weaker.
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Ah, such a great argument... except completley useless in this context. Things are significantly different now than they were then. You can even see that, at that point in time, the benefits of slave ownership were STILL slimmer than they were during, say, the Roman Empire era. Nowadays, in western culture and western business, slaves and illegals don't help things along. The added benefit of cheap labor does not benefit the common man at all and really doesn't help the "upper echelon" the way it used to. You can argue that businesses see benefits from this, but do they really? Surely they pay their employees less, but are they as up to par? Do they do as good of work? Maybe not always... that has to cost a client here and there. What about word of mouth, either from that client or from people who won't buy services from people who USE illegal workers. It's not always obvious, but sometimes it is. Realistically, most (not all) larger companies would never touch such workers... I wonder why that it?! Oh, because it's ILLEGAL and also bad for business.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
This stuff goes in cycles. At one point the labor to build a car was expensive because it required highly skilled people. Same with making watches, computers, homes, etc. As production techniques improved and processes standardized, etc, the cost of labor goes down. It has happened over and over in the past and will continue.
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No, there's nothing cyclic about it. The usefulness of this type of business practice, as I noted above, has been shrinking for some 500 years easily. The industrial era broke it down even more rapidly and the digital era has pretty much put it's usefulness out to the curb entirely.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
I think the real problem are with people who who take things for granted. If people want top dollar for their labor they have to continually improve their marketable skills. Thats the bottom line.
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I agree... people should ALWAYS be honing their skills. But sometimes there's more than JUST the basis of skills. Skill level being the same, there are other things I look at, and price isn't the ONLY one. Counter to my dealership example above, if I KNOW the work at Billy Joe John Cooter's shop is on par or better, AND they charged the SAME amount as the dealership, I may very well go to little gusys shop to help support local small businesses. It depends on a LOT of factors, but money is only one small facet of those.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
Anyone who is worried about an uneducated third world person taking their job has some really major problems. Perhaps its time for us to stop spending every free moment drinking beer and watching sports and learn some new skills.
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Well, maybe it doesn't help that they get their education without paying the taxes for it. Maybe it doesn't help that we cater to them to give them special classes in their native tongue. We bend over backwards, in many cases, to put them on par with legal citizens. I'm not TERRIBLY worried about illegal mexican workers coming into the IT industry anytime soon, but it's not impossible. My skillset is good, and I personally don't spend every free moment drinking beer and watching sports. But you know what? Just because someone does doesn't mean their job should be undercut by someone who is BREAKING THE LAW by even being here. *boggle* That doesn't really sound like a healthy viewpoint.