Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - It's a wonderful world...or it is just liberal?

politicophile · 04-13-2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by balefire88

Linking liberal and conservative issues in terms of Republican and Democratic parties is wrong, and I did no such thing. Before the Civil War, the Republicans were the party of emancipation, and the Democrats were the party of the South, i.e. pro-slavery. So, incredibly, the Republican party was the "liberal" party and the "Democrats" were the conservative party.

I would really like to know why you find it obvious that slavery is conservative and emancipation is liberal. I'm sorry, but slavery simply isn't a left-right issue.... unless you believe liberal vs. conservative is equivalent to good vs. evil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by balefire88

The New Deal as "conservative" legislation? I'm pretty sure that's just an incredibly incorrect statement. Conservatism was better seen in the policies of "laissez-faire" (spelling check?), and FDR's policies were an incredible stepf forward for liberal thinking brought about by a reaction to the Great Depression and the prevalent feeling that the Republican party was the party of "cold, uncaring bankers."

Here you seem to be saying that Republicans, who called themselves "conservatives", opposed the New Deal. This is taken by you as evidence that opposing the New Deal is the conservative thing to do. Conversely, since the "liberal" party favored it, the New Deal must be liberal. However, as we already agreed, party alignment does not always track ideological committment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by balefire88

Your definitions are just completely wrong. Conservatives generally blelive in small government which does not regulate the economy, but socially they have been a bit ambiguous. Libertarians look for the government to be small and not to interfere with local decisions, while evangelicals have looked for the government to step in for decisions on morality, such as sex-education in schools, though even they would prefer it be handled locally.

Liberals today tend to believe in free-market economics as well but they do want governemnt to make sure the consumer is protected against big business, and to make sure class gap is not widended. Socially, they want freedom, but are not afraid of making sure government has the power to guarantee that there is freedom.

That's interesting. Your definitions of liberal and conservative seem to be nothing more than descriptions of the Republican and Democratic Parties. But, as you said earlier, "Linking liberal and conservative issues in terms of Republican and Democratic parties is wrong": the mere fact that a Republican believes something does not make that belief conservative, nor do all Democratic beliefs merit the label "liberal".

Here are my definitions of liberalism and conservatism, from Wikipedia and Radical Academy:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Classical liberalism (also called classic liberalism) is a political ideology that embraces individual rights, private property and a laissez-faire economy, a government that exists to protect the liberty of each individual from others, and a constitution that protects individual autonomy from governmental power.[1] It originated in the 17th and 18th centuries. As such, it is often seen as being the natural ideology of the industrial revolution and its subsequent capitalist system. Ideas such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of thought, self-responsibility, and free markets were first proposed by classical liberal thinkers before they were also adopted by thinkers of other ideologies. Classical liberals tend to focus on the individual freedom, reason, justice and toleration.[2]. Classical liberal ideas inspired both the American Revolution and the French Revolution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Irbe

(1b) Since the Enlightenment, it has seemed quite natural to suppose that the cause of 'individual liberty' is what is at issue in every question of law … the conservative is in no way forced to accept it. … It is … the quintessence of the Enlightenment concept … that the well-being of man is freedom, and that all government is valid only as a means to that end. ... The conservative view begins from a conflicting premise, which is that the abstract ideal of autonomy, however admirable, is radically incomplete. Men have free will … But the 'form' of freedom requires a content. Freedom is of no use to a being who lacks the concepts with which to value things, who lives in a solipsistic vacuum, idly willing now this now that, but with no conception of an objective order that would be affected by his choice...

(1a) One major difference between conservatism and liberalism consists, therefore, in the fact that, for the conservative, the value of individual liberty is not absolute, but stands subject to another and higher value, the authority of established government. … what satisfies people politically … is not freedom, but congenital government. Government is the primary need of every man subject to the discipline of social intercourse, and freedom the name of at least one of his anxieties.

(1a) It is through an ideal of authority that the conservative experiences the political world. His liberal opponent, whose view is likely to be anhistorical, will usually fail to understand that notion, … he seeks to impose his rootless prejudices.

NOTE: Wikipedia's entry for classical liberalism contains a disclaimer that the factual accuracy of the article is disputed. I read the part quoted above carefully and believe in its accuracy. Also, Wiki's article on conservatism does a very poor job of defining classical conservatism. The definition I included here is not especially good, in part because I got it from a leftist website that despises the philosophy.