Ok, enough being Mr. nice guy, I'll just be like some people
debaser,
Quote:
|
At the risk of sounding somewhat inflamatory, you will not win an argument with a fundamentalist. Everything nanotech posted above was either an outright falsehood or a gross misunderstanding of science. Let him revel in his ignorance. The original posters thesis has been debunked thoroughly by now, and the whole proof of Gods existence has been done to death, here and elsewhere.
|
This statement is made by an ignorant. By saying I have a complete misunderstanding and falsehood; you have ignored all prophets, books of God, all religions, God himself, and the proofs of creation. That is because these were the matters I was talking about and getting proofs from.
Quote:
|
Well, I am glad you are learning something.
|
thanks, I learned how to increase my level of patience and to put up with pain in the butt
Quote:
|
No, it really has been done to death. Every BBS on the web with anything resembling a "philosophy" room has heard this argument a thousand times. Do not use science to prove God. You will either kill science or God.
|
I can use science to prove God's existence. The Quran is a miracle of science because it has many verses that contain information about purpose of the mountains, the history of vanished nations, information from around the world, creation of human beings (further explanation) in the most perfect form (has humanity evolved into 4 hands people in thousands of years?)
Many prophets came, Mohammad said he will be the last one. Truly no other prophet came later. I think, "I think", its because God has given the miracle which is enough for people to beleive in him. The miracle of time. There is a video called miracles of the Quran. It predicts what happened now and in the future 1400 years ago. see it. Its a miracle which can occur always means, in time.
Bill O'Rights
Quote:
A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
While it is my belief that you are demonstrating those characteristics, you seem to feel that you are being insulted. So be it. Make your case, to me, how being refered to as a fundamentalist, when you embody the tennants of fundamentalism, is an insult.
|
That is my mistake, from the context of debaser when he used the word ignorance. I thought fundamentalists means people who believe in something without thought, logic, or evidence. The media these days, CNN, seems to use the fundamentalists word together with Muslims terrorist and so forth. Hence I thought it was meant this way which I'm certainly not. Anyway, if debaser calling people ignorant or saying everything you post is a falsehood is not considered an insult. Then I can call him the same.
Quote:
hmmm so a Koran translated in english is exactly the same as a Koran in Arabic?
Language is not so rigid that words translate from language to language easily. This is also why the Bible could have flaws as well, translation alters words just as well as human minds interpreting those words.
As far as pork and worms is concerned, well if it "specifically" said, don't eat pork due to worms that can be seen microscopically I'd agree that it's handed down from God, but it does not. It states different reasons that were apparent to those that lived in the time it was written.
|
Cynthetiq, thanks for asking. There is a translation for the Quran in many languages. This translation is made by someone who has spend years who has studied, analysed, the Quran and Hadeeth and other books. Also the translation holds the same rules in terms of publication. I think Saudia Arabia might be responsible for seeing and making sure the translated books are translated correctly. Would it hold a different meaning? The Quran is not complicated and as far as I know, it was explained(each verse) from the time it came. There are books for this too.
Quote:
|
Its the same story with your pork example. If you eat a piece of pork and then you get sick, and then the next day you eat a piece of pork and then you get sick, and then the next day you eat a piece of pork and then you get sick, and then the next day you eat a piece of beef and you don't get sick, and then the next day you eat a piece of pork and you get sick, you will figure out that somehow the pork is making you sick. You don't NEED to know about worms or bacteria or whatever else is in the pork that makes you sick. That is what happened. Someone figured out pork was making them sick, and they told everyone else not to eat it. Simple as that.
|
shakran, expand your thought. There are many countries and continents. There "could" have been many animals that hold this worm but there aren't. The Quran said only pork meat, meat of the dead, and carnivores. If it was by observation, how did the Prophet Mohammad 1400 years ago, who was poor (his job was a goat herder and he had no education, couldn't read or write), go across continents and gain this knowledge that pork meat is the only meat that has this worm? He couldn't, one miracle of Quran.
Quote:
|
And all that being said, worms do not survive in cooked pork as long as the pork was cooked at 137 degrees F or higher. The recommended cooking temperature of pork is 160 degrees F. Miracle of science, debunked.
|
incorrect. 160 degrees needs a presto or a machine to hold the heat to get to 160 degrees Fahrenheit. At the time 1400 years ago till this age, there was no such device. Hence people would have died from disease if they ate pork.
Quote:
|
Mountains are FORMED by the collsions of the tectonic plates. If they were "nails" holding the plates down then 1) they wouldn't have formed from the plates colliding, and 2) we wouldn't have earthquakes since the plates wouldn't be moving against each other.
|
Mountains do form by the collision of the Tectonic plates. The tectonic plate then forms an upright position. upright inside earth like a needle. The length of a mountain inside earth is bigger than outside earth. These help to get the lava stable, not 100% fixed, but stable. Without this "Natural technology" continents and islands would be shifting quickly. This has been mentioned in the Quran. Its in one of the videos, “creation of the universe" I think.
Quote:
|
This brings me to my real point. From your perspective you are arguing from a very comfortable position. While we who actually know real science have to check our facts and learn our facts, all you have to do is claim that all science comes from the Quran.
|
What is this... We, who know real science? You are obviously saying that people who beleive in God, don’t know real science and people who don't, they do know real science. This is absolute crap. Many people who believe in God are scientists. Even Einstein believed that there is a creator. My friend, a good beleiver and muslim, graduated as an honors list CCE and is working as a designer for logic circuits (CPUs) for a chip manufacturer. I studied computer science and program portals, ecommerce solutions, and can fix electronics Studied biology, probability, engineering, digital circuits and others. I don't want to and don't like to brag. I'm just showing you that your statement is unfounded "we, who actually know science.."
nezmot,
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanotech
Q1) I watched documentaries many years ago. As far as I remember, the giraffes' necks all have the same number of bones but natural selection chose the taller bones.
This is very important because that means that evolution was a result of natural selection. The giraffes' with longer neck bones managed to reproduce and gave birth to giraffes' with longer neck bones. This is normal reproduction > evolution > adaptation.
Now if and only if the tallness of the giraffe came because the number of neck bones increased, then it would be a totally different story! This means that a new bone object was written in the DNA and fitted in the write manner to be in the neck. This would have meant that evolution was able to create. But its scientifically impossible for new information to be created on its own (in the DNA).
I missed this the first time round - but it is interesting because it shows up something important about the way evolution appears to have shaped the world around us.
Specifically, the structure of the animals.
Have you ever noticed how everything with a backbone, from the smallest tree-frog, through to the largest whale, has analogous skeletal structures?
We all have spines, arms and legs (or at least, the vestiges of them as evidenced in snakes), a skull etc. Comparing the bones of a horse and the bones of a man is possible and while there may not be exactly the same number of bones, there is a distinct similarity in apparent structure and arrangement.
What does this tell us about evolution, creationism or adaption?
It tells us that either there was one population of animals (likely an early amphibious creature) from which lizards, snakes, elephants, mice, man and dinosaurs are all decended from; Or, that God had some form of general prototype, from which he copied and pasted into each species, tweaking at the edges in order to create different variations on the theme.
One thing that seems interesting is the role of the mammals that live in the seas; dolphins, whales etc. They have the bone structure of the (mostly land-based) animals, yet live their whole lives in the water like fish (with their entirely different skeletal structures) Why would God go through the whole process of bending all those bones out of shape, if he already had a perfectly working prototype for a sea-based life in the fish? If nothing else, it certainly shows poor design practice. More likely (to my mind), it displays a vivid example of the random, blind and accidental nature of evolution. Why? Because here, in the whale, we see evidence of an ancestry that started in the seas, drawing oxygen from the water around it, before evolving into a land-walking, air-breathing beast, before once again returning to the seas and re-evolving back again into an aquatic form. What a completely stupid way to evolve! No-one would seriously go about creating a creature this way on purpose.
|
Why God made fish and whales of different back bone structures. Because he can. I'm sure it has a purpose, maybe we know it, maybe not.
How can dolphins use sounds to communicate, and hunt for food.
2 dolphins can communicate 200 Kilometers away from each other in the sea; by the use of the sonar waves.
First scientists said man came from dinosaurs or apes, then its rats, now its viruses. But this is another big subject we have to analyze.
Whales are mammals, humans are mammals, why didn't some people who supposedly inherited from whales did possess this ability to communicate via sonar?
Bats are mammals, humans are mammals. Why didn't some humans also possess the ability to see via sound as bats do?
If humans came from evolution, why doesn't science find 1, 3, 4 legged or 4 handed people in the museum. or one eyed people? Why no one eyed people? God created people with 2 eyes from the beginning because 2 eyes are needed to calculate distance and because of other things. Such as a backup system if one eye gets hurt. Shouldn't evolution have made 1 eye first as a first version of human vision? and perhaps later, it evolved into 2 eyes?
Human beings have not changed in overall structure in thousands or millions of years, and I don't think they will change naturally in the future, only artificially. There is a verse in the Quran which contains this info: "We created humans in the most perfect form..". I would conclude from this verse that the biology or physical structure of humans will not get more perfect.
Quote:
|
Why do people have ths need to point out where everybody else is wrong or at least they think they are wrong? Who cares what he/she believes and why? Keep it to yourself. I highly doubt the rantings os somebody on this forum has made them closer to God and taken them away. Why can't everybofy just let it be. I seems like people are atacking eachother and that just sucks.
|
florida0214, yes there's ranting as you said, but I can handle it via patience
. Btw, no I wasn't taken away I just have work todo. I cann't stay here waiting for the next post like nezmot or shakran.
Quote:
Having thought about this a bit more - I might have been as robust as I have been here, due, in part to a feeling of personal insult. (Now I'm being completely personal and candid here.)
I felt offended that nanotech had dared to appropriate my personal belief system (scientific thought) and tried to subvert it in order to support his own. I found that really hard to deal with.
How would a person of any given religion feel if I started using their religion to justify my statements? Especially if I were to twist the words of that religion in the process to say things that were blatantly not true?
"Jesus lived and died to show us that trees are evil and should all be demolished."
"Mohammed tells us that the earth is flat."
If I seriously tried suggesting things along these lines, wouldn't it be reasonable for me to expect a little controversy?
Then why is it considered reasonable for people to try to say that 'Science' tells us this, or that, or the other? Science is a belief system, just like any other, but it's my belief system and I don't like it when people try to subvert it, or make out that it is something that it's not - specifically, in an attempt to use it as an authority on the truth.
Science is not an authority - it does not 'tell' us things. It is instead a process, a way of thinking - It is a philosophy. What it is not, is a set of stone tablets that tells us an incontrovertible list of facts. Science can never prove something - it can only disprove, and even then, only in limited circumstances.
I find it upsetting when people fail to realise this in the same way (to use another absurdist example) a Muslim might likely feel upset if someone were to suggest that Islam is all about blowing things up.
Is it reasonable for me to feel like this when someone violates, warps and twists something to their own ends discrediting it in the process? A particular something I happen to feel passionate about? You're damn right it is.
__________________
|
That is exactly the opposite, you are the one who said my theory is crazy and that all my postings are complete untruths! At the same time I was not judging your thinking or even your statements and was getting proofs from the Quran and logical deductions.
Quote:
|
I felt offended that nanotech had dared to appropriate my personal belief system (scientific thought) and tried to subvert it in order to support his own. I found that really hard to deal with.
|
Had dared to appropriate my personal belief system...?! You are either imagining this or making it up. I was giving scientific evidence that proved Gods existence, miracles of time from the Quran when there was no science 1400 years ago. And what you did is call my theory crazy and everything I said are complete untruths. And now you are acting like an innocent.