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Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
First Will, I don't appreciate you saying the legality under US law has never been an issue. In the context of this board that isn't true, as seen in this thread on several accounts Bush is labeled as a war criminal for his actions, the conflict is labeled as illegal. That's why I mention it. Again I reassert the FACT that international law holds no weight, no muster, and at best in the context of this issue is a matter of politicking by other foreign sovereign states.
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The thing is that when the question of legality is applied to the Iraq war, it is usually international law, which is absurdly fuzzy on preemptive wars and even more fuzzy about situations as complicated as the one we're in. We are in a situation where the intelligence leading up to the war was either incorrectr (no ones fault), or a lie (big prolem). Until we can make a determination about the nature of the intelligence, we cannot determine if the war was wholely preemptive and unwarranted. I think this is where I remember the legal issue beig debated, which I can understand. That conversation will have to wait for more proof, though. For now, it's going to have to remain unsolved and on the back burner. I will say though that forging and distorting federal intillegence is a serious crime, and IF there are people responsible for pushing a war though by changing and distorting intelligence gathered then we could have US law take action in this eventually. But again, We'll have to wait and see.
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Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
I can't really argue against this comment so much. Hell we might even agree, perhaps maybe wholly if you would concede that a moral compass is completely moot, but I doubt you would. Logic cannot factor in, again I would attest this to short sightedness, no disrespect intended, but I feel compelled to quote old treebeard and say "don't be hasty" at least in how it applies to political capital; hindsight is always going to be 20-20. For me the end will always justify the means, my end is different then yours, so perhaps we will have to agree to disagree.
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I can never discout morality completly and more than I can remove and arm or an eye ball. It's a part of me. I do realize that my morality is not always the same as those who I am communicating with, and I've learned to live with that. Luckly, there is something that is universal: fact. You really believe the ends justify the means? That's usually a situational, or case by case type of statement. Does an omlett justify breaking eggs? Absolutely. Does better technology and stability justify WWII? Probably not.
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Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
You will are an Idealist, can't knock you for that. Others like myself would argue that a true leader should follow a Machiavellian mold, probably more of a realist mold. A true leader serves no master but their ambition; they never lend their power in such a way that would hinder their own; hell in a historical sense, dating back to Washington one of America's precepts has been to steer clear of allies, as they hinder our interests in a means to serve their own. I agree you finish what you start, I hope Shrub and America after him can do that, and do it right.
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What use is a selfish leader?
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Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei
The war in Iraq was one of America's needs, again it comes down to policy, and it is an issue that time will reveal. I guess all this gab is a matter of perspective.
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Well at it's coore the whole big mess we calll Tilted Politics is about perspective. Its important that everyone understand that. I know that social programs like universal healthcare or libraries, schools, colleges, and adult education would have been a better investment from that $500b than rebuilding a country that we are trearing apart. At the same time there are a million other opinions all with equal merrit about the very same thing. It's all based on the sensation and perception, or that makes us who we are: individuals. We aren't the Borg (or one minded automotans with one opinion and one goal).