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Originally Posted by martinguerre
Aw, man this just gets better.
Mainstream Judiasm does not have a concept of justification by faith.
John did not have a Trinity in mind when they wrote. The concept had not yet been invented.
Nor does 3:16 imply hell. Belief at the time would have indicated that many simply would not rise in the end of time, and stay dead since they did not deserve to live eternally. Their lives would end at mortal death, nothing more.
I quibble with this all since this is the problem of your whole argument. You can't get there from here...and you're picking up all sorts of anachronisms and particularities along the way. The end result is a description of these beleifs that is deeply twisted by your analytical framework.
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*Tries to be patient with Martinguerre*
"Abraham was justified by faith, his faith was reckoned unto him as righteousness." Apparently, legend has it, that was before the deuterocannonical books were written.
Firstly... the trinity is not necessary for "justification by faith" in the old testament (old covenant). (in the NEW testament covenant, 'yes' the trinity is needed)
(Please dont confuse the doctrine I refer to with the catholic commuinity called the "community of the doctrine of faith", they have a whole other purpose.)
I mean doctrine in the simplest theologoical sense: a belief (or system of beliefs) accepted as authoritative by some group or school.
"Abraham believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness" (Genesis 15:6).
So righteousness was needed... but faith did the trick... hence the beginnings of the doctrine of faith. The story of abaham is the source of the doctrine in which "FAITH" was a means of salvation.
"By faith Abraham, even though he was past age – and Sarah herself was barren – was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise" (Hebrews 11:11). (new testament...)
THE STORY OF ABRAHAM IS THE SOURCE OF THE DOCTRINE OF FAITH.
It originated in the OLD testament writings. Old testament Law was written in the deuterocanonical books, the same books that recorded the story of Abraham (for the first time)
Now that that is out of the way...
According to Rabbinic Judaism
Gehenna is fairly well defined in rabbinic literature. It is sometimes translated as "Hell", but this doesn't effectively convey its meaning. In Judaism, Gehenna is not hell, but rather a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on their life's deeds. The Kabbalah describes it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked). The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehenna forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (heb. עולם הבא; lit. "The world to come", often viewed as analogous to Heaven). This is also mentioned in the Kabbalah, where the soul is described as breaking, like the flame of a candle lighting another: the part of the soul that ascends being pure, and the "unfinished" piece being reborn.
Geenna (or Gehenna) is the name of a real place. It comes from Hebrew and means "Gorge of Hinnom (Ge-Hinnom)". This gorge can still be visited today near Jerusalem. In the time of the Old Testament it was a place where children were sacrificed to the Ammonite god Molech (2 Kings 23,10)(Old testament). That cultic practice was, according to the Old Testament, imitated by King Solomon in the 10th Century B.C.E. and under the leadership of king Manasseh in the 7th Century B.C.E. and in times of crisis until the time of exile of the Jews in Babylon (6th Century B.C.E.). The prophet Jeremiah, who condemned that cult strictly, called the valley the "gorge of killing" (Jeremiah 7,31-32; 19,5-9). Gehenna became later a central garbage dump, to stop the practice of child sacrifice. At the turn of the 1st Century C.E. the gorge was used also to burn the dead bodies of criminals after their execution. The imagination of burning dead bodies probably inspired Jewish, and later Christian theologians to translate that place into the word "hell".
He's the Catch... If they do not go to heaven (as a result of thier sins against God) where do they go? Gehenna for 12 months? As some have said they just lie in the ground. Or do they "burn" as the historical account, above, says? If you had to choose between gehenna and eternal life with God... wouldn't you be choosing between heaven and hell? It's not even a stretch as you say it is.
If you were a faithful man from days of Old which would you choose. The spiritual forge? or "heaven"?
By the way Martinguerre: Eisegesis is the approach to Bible interpretation where the interpreter tries to "force" the Bible to mean something that fits their existing belief or understanding of a particular issue or doctrine. People who interpret the Bible this way are usually not willing to let the Bible speak for itself and let the chips fall where they may. They set off with the up-front goal of trying to prove a point they already believe in, and everything they read and interpret is filtered through that paradigm. Stated another way, they engage in what the Bible refers to as "private interpretation"
Honestly... Martinguerre I sense this about your arguments.
Here are just a few of the translations of John 3:16.. Now that you understand what hell is, in a theological sense, perhaps you'll see these in a slightly different Light.
Translation John 3:16 Greek
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. ( I can't read greek either)
American Standard Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Amplified Bible
For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
Contemporary English Version
God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die.
English Standard Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Geneva Bible
For God so loved the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have euerlasting life.
GOD'S WORD
God loved the world this way: He gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.
Good News Translation
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish but have eternal life.
International Standard Version
For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
Jerusalem Bible
Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not be lost but may have eternal life.
King James Version For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
HSV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The Living Bible
For God loved the world so much that He gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
The Message This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life.
New American Bible
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
New American Standard Bible
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
New American Standard Bible Update
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
New English Bible
God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, that everyone who has faith in him may not die but have eternal life.
New English Translation
For this is the way God loved the world: he gave his one and only Son that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
New International Version For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
New Jerusalem Bible For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
New King James Version For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
New Living Translation For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
New Revised Standard Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
New Simplified Bible
For God loved the world so much, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever has an active faith (believes) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
New World Translation
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.
Revised English Bible
God so loved the world that he gave he gave his only son that everyone who has faith in him may not perish buy have eternal life
Revised Standard Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Revised Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Today's New International Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
William Tyndale
For God so loveth the world, that he hath given his only son, that none that believe in him, should perish: but should have everlasting life.
World English Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
The Word on the Street Cos
God's so passionate about the planet that he donates his one and only Son. Whoever invests their life in his Son doesn't die, but gets given this limitless life.