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host · 03-01-2006, 06:24 AM

I have to confide that I resent that I'm still coming here...I'm having a very similar reaction to spending time here, as I am to finding myself still in residence in the US of A.

I think that roachboy is "right on the money" with his opinion that what we currently have is a political system controlled by two parties of the right, differing only by degree. I watch what is happening in areas of public sentiment about issues, the way people vote, the encroachment of religion (American christians who possess total control of the political system, while they whine about being somehow, "persecuted"!!)

I observe these threads, my TV....and my countrymen....and lately it's like watching a train or car wreck....I want to avert my gaze, but I can't quite bring myself to look away.

I agree with this post 2000 election assessment: <a href="http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:OGrd1GDHwNkJ:www.oakridger.com/stories/120800/opE_1208000075.html+%22gore+lost+tennessee%22&hl=en&lr=&strip=1">Why Al Gore lost Tennessee</a> ....it speaks volumes about where we as a country have been, where we're headed, and about how shallow issue driven sentiment is, and how easy it is to manipulate it when one understands the prejudices and history of a regional culture, and knows what buttons to push to sway voters to vote against their own best(economic, environmental, security, educational, political power potential of the majority) interests.

Voters in Tennessee gave up the economic impact and prestige of having a Presidential "son"...the attention, tourism boost, the post presidency library, birthplace....for what? They're left living in one of the poorest states with the one of the least educated and most devoutly "christian" populations. They got new bankruptcy and tort reform laws that will go over great in a state with high bankruptcy and home foreclosure rates, and low percentages of families covered by private health insurance.

The "reform" was more about rewarding the credit card industry lobby, and cutting the incentive (and incomes) for trial lawyers to contribute to democrats who might have stopped passage of tort reform, than it results in any lowering of consumer interest rates or reductions in malpractice insurance premimums.....

My awareness (and disgust) are heightened by a few things that I personally know about, pretty well. My best childhood friend's father was a "Yale man".
During football season, I was invited to all the home game talegate parties, and I got to observe Yale alumni tradition and interaction, close up.

I noted that, after Bush "won" in 2000, he came back to Yale, where he graduated in '68, to give a speach at graduation, for his first visit in 32 years!

On 9/11, I was living on the upper west side of Manhattan.....I didn't know it before the first plane hit a WTC tower....but the thought soon crept into my
mind that, before it crashed, that "airliner turned missle", had flown just a few hundred feet higher and to the west of where I was standing in my 18th floor apartment, two blocks east of the Hudson river. That afternoon, I walked out into the river on the newly built Trump pier, and I could look south and see the smoke coming from where the WTC stood, five hours before.

Sixty days later, I accepted an opportunity to move into a sublet apartment for three months. It was located on the Hudson, three blocks from what was now the WTC debris field. I had to pass through a roadblock daily, manned by NG troops or NYSP, in order to drive my car in or out of that area. ID and an authorization from the apartment building management was required to pass.

I was struck by how total, massive, and concentrated the obliterated area in lower Manhattan, in reality, ended up being. It couldn't have been any more impressive, yet compact, contained, and materially and collaterally insignifigant, even on an island as geographically small as on Manhattan....than if "They"...had fucking planned it....

I walked or drove by the main entrance where trucks with debris were washed down as they exited with their full loads of WTC wreckage, at least twice, each of the next 90 days. In empty and out full, those trucks ran 24/7, as long as I lived there, even on Christmas. From my living room window, I could watch the barge loads of WTC debris (the trucks drove less than two blocks before they dumped their loads into the bucket of a giant, rail mounted pier crane that transferred the "material" destined for the landfill on Staten Island.)....as the tugs nudged them away from the pier and out into the Hudson river current.

When the three month sublet ended, I drove down to my current new home in a major metro area in the "new south". When I got here, it was as if the 9/11 attack had never even happened. The "south" had moved on. The dreary, WTC collapse dust stained storefronts of lower Manhattan, shuttered since 9/11 by a lack of customers caused by the loss of the WTC and the post attack, security "lockdown" of that area, were in sharp contrast to the newly constructed strip malls springing up all over the vicinity of my new southern home.

I became acquainted with a "born again" influenced, social and political culture and nearly uniform mindset, as similar...and foreign to me, anyway ....as the one that is described in the "Gore article", linked above, or the one that I observe in the opinions and reactions in the posts of about half of you,
......on these threads.

The mindset is as "different" to my thinking and life experience, than George Bush's reaction and behavior to finding himself as a Yale alumni, for the 32 years after he graduated. I don't understand George, I can't comprehend how "working people" in the "new south" vote for candidates who obviously represent corporate interests and priorities, to the detriment of their citizen constituents, and I don't understand you folks, here.

Now, a few observations and queations that confound the shit outta me....I've had a bird's eye view of the events,and their aftermath, that have most shaped recent American times, compared to most Americans, and I have a tendency to be more curious, and more apt to immerse myself in the details of what might be going on....than most other people.....can anyone answer the following questions, for me???
[1]How the "eff" did a thread with such a title, links, and comments, avoid being "moved" outta "politics", for this long? (I could never convince mods to even let my more reputably footnoted "endeavors" that leaned toward conjecture, remain on here...what's the "secret"? I'll opine that I feel strongly that any thread (or post) reinforced by links from mainstream sources, should never be moved....or CLOSED. The quality of the information displayed and the diminished future exposure that moving and closing serves to deprive those who might have read it if it had been left OPEN or "IN PLACE" on here, trumps any potential positive effect of "moderation", IMO. After all, isn't it about increasing the potential exposure to "hard news", to as many people who could come across an unaltered post or thread??

[2]How come the only source for the 9/11 "boxcutter as hijacker weapon" reports, can be narrowed down to coming from Ted Olson, wife of Flight 77 passenger Barbara Olson, and the solicitor general of the U.S., who told the SCOTUS that he believed there are times when it is appropriate for the federal goverment to lie to the citizenry? Ted allegedly "fed" the boxcutter "story" to his friend, a CNN exec. who had it posted on CNN's site, early on the morning of 9/12.

[3]How come the only two major candidates for the 2004 Presidential election, were members of a Yale "secret society" that inducts just 15 members per year, and how come the major Washington DC newspaper assigned coverage of the campaigns of both candidates to a reporter who was also a member of that same "society"? How come the candidate who was the Yale "outsider", the man with no family tradition at Yale, had the "normal" alumni relationship with the school, similar to the ties that I had personally observed in my best friend's dad, and his former classmates, and the candidate who's Yale ties went back four generations, never visited as an alumni? Who did Yale, as an entity that boasted a long reputation for placing it's grads in high office, or the tiny secret society, truly want to see elected, or would either of the two "right" party candidates, mesh interchangeably?

[4]How come the "new south" and other, more rural, "red state" constituencies, acted so "impacted" by the 9/11 attacks, that they backed the "War prez-nut" without question or dissent, and agreed to such expensive, aggressive, and wide ranging responses, when the area of impact was so remote from where they lived, was so contained, and had such a tiny impact on their day to day lives, while the folks living near "ground zero" failed to trust Bush, and half believed that he and his administration lied about what it knew before the 9/11 attack, and how earnestly it defended the area military and provided post disaster aid to surviving family of attack victims, for rebuilding, and for actual future security to cities most likely to be "hit"?

[5]As I detailed in the post that I so cooperatively moved to the "P" word forum yesterday, before I was even required to......why are there so many contradictions in the 9/11 Commission report, if it is a sincere determination of what happened on 9/11, and why do all the folks who seem as foreign thinking...to me....as Bush does as a Yale alumni....seem not even curious enough to look into or to respond to discrepancies like the ones in my "P" thread post? Where does they're unquestioning "faith" in Bush come from?
Why do they almost never cite MSM news reports when they defend Bush or disagree with what I post.?

[6]If the MSM is so "liberal" in it's bias, how come last Sunday's NBC
"Meet the Press", had three republican guests, and no democrats?

[7]Trent Lott was on Chris Matthew's "Softball", the other day. He ranted that he was "mad" that his prez-nut, wouldn't even discuss the Dubai port deal.....just threatening to veto any effort by the congress controlled by his own "right" party, that attempts to interfere with the "DEAL". Lott pointed out that he represents PEOPLE!! Why does this all seem like a Karl Rove "Op" designed to deal with the reality that Bush is an anchor around repubs who have to run for election in late 2006? The "Dubai story" was public and under-reported by MSM for three months. Why did it suddenly make headlines, and why does it seem such a convenient vehicle for repub congressment to use to "push back" against Bush, and show the sheeple back home that they are independent representative and do not bow to Bush's every whim?

[8]Can't a case be made that almost all federal elected officials of both "right" parties, are PLANTS that represent only the status quo and the goals of GE, Bank America, Lockheed, and whoever else pays the K street lobbyists? Why stop with just Bush? Who, in congress, represents working families that deserve the "playing field" balancing effects of strong unions, a progressive tax system, affordable health care, equal access to competent legal aid, women's health and reproductive services and clinics, honest and open government with active ethics enforcement, quality public financed education, and enforced environmental protection laws, fiscally sustaining and resource conserving energy and alternative energy resource policies, and a less confrontational foreign policy with an empahsis on defense of human rights? Since Carter was voted out, 26 years ago, I see only two "right" parties dominating the political spectrum. How do any of you justify arguing that it is any other way? Just like in the days after 9/11....ask yourself, who benefits from the outcome of the attack, or from our "elections". Is it most of us?

03-01-2006, 06:24 AM	#36 (permalink)
host Banned	I have to confide that I resent that I'm still coming here...I'm having a very similar reaction to spending time here, as I am to finding myself still in residence in the US of A. I think that roachboy is "right on the money" with his opinion that what we currently have is a political system controlled by two parties of the right, differing only by degree. I watch what is happening in areas of public sentiment about issues, the way people vote, the encroachment of religion (American christians who possess total control of the political system, while they whine about being somehow, "persecuted"!!) I observe these threads, my TV....and my countrymen....and lately it's like watching a train or car wreck....I want to avert my gaze, but I can't quite bring myself to look away. I agree with this post 2000 election assessment: <a href="http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:OGrd1GDHwNkJ:www.oakridger.com/stories/120800/opE_1208000075.html+%22gore+lost+tennessee%22&hl=en&lr=&strip=1">Why Al Gore lost Tennessee</a> ....it speaks volumes about where we as a country have been, where we're headed, and about how shallow issue driven sentiment is, and how easy it is to manipulate it when one understands the prejudices and history of a regional culture, and knows what buttons to push to sway voters to <b>vote against their own best</b>(economic, environmental, security, educational, political power potential of the majority) <b>interests.</b> Voters in Tennessee gave up the economic impact and prestige of having a Presidential "son"...the attention, tourism boost, the post presidency library, birthplace....for what? They're left living in one of the poorest states with the one of the least educated and most devoutly "christian" populations. They got new bankruptcy and tort reform laws that will go over great in a state with high bankruptcy and home foreclosure rates, and low percentages of families covered by private health insurance. The "reform" was more about rewarding the credit card industry lobby, and cutting the incentive (and incomes) for trial lawyers to contribute to democrats who might have stopped passage of tort reform, than it results in any lowering of consumer interest rates or reductions in malpractice insurance premimums..... My awareness (and disgust) are heightened by a few things that I personally know about, pretty well. My best childhood friend's father was a "Yale man". During football season, I was invited to all the home game talegate parties, and I got to observe Yale alumni tradition and interaction, close up. I noted that, after Bush "won" in 2000, he came back to Yale, where he graduated in '68, to give a speach at graduation, for his first visit in 32 years! On 9/11, I was living on the upper west side of Manhattan.....I didn't know it before the first plane hit a WTC tower....but the thought soon crept into my mind that, before it crashed, that "airliner turned missle", had flown just a few hundred feet higher and to the west of where I was standing in my 18th floor apartment, two blocks east of the Hudson river. That afternoon, I walked out into the river on the newly built Trump pier, and I could look south and see the smoke coming from where the WTC stood, five hours before. Sixty days later, I accepted an opportunity to move into a sublet apartment for three months. It was located on the Hudson, three blocks from what was now the WTC debris field. I had to pass through a roadblock daily, manned by NG troops or NYSP, in order to drive my car in or out of that area. ID and an authorization from the apartment building management was required to pass. I was struck by how total, massive, and concentrated the obliterated area in lower Manhattan, in reality, ended up being. It couldn't have been any more impressive, yet compact, contained, and materially and collaterally insignifigant, even on an island as geographically small as on Manhattan....than if <b>"They"...had fucking planned it....</b> I walked or drove by the main entrance where trucks with debris were washed down as they exited with their full loads of WTC wreckage, at least twice, each of the next 90 days. In empty and out full, those trucks ran 24/7, as long as I lived there, even on Christmas. From my living room window, I could watch the barge loads of WTC debris (the trucks drove less than two blocks before they dumped their loads into the bucket of a giant, rail mounted pier crane that transferred the "material" destined for the landfill on Staten Island.)....as the tugs nudged them away from the pier and out into the Hudson river current. When the three month sublet ended, I drove down to my current new home in a major metro area in the "new south". When I got here, it was as if the 9/11 attack had never even happened. The "south" had moved on. The dreary, WTC collapse dust stained storefronts of lower Manhattan, shuttered since 9/11 by a lack of customers caused by the loss of the WTC and the post attack, security "lockdown" of that area, were in sharp contrast to the newly constructed strip malls springing up all over the vicinity of my new southern home. I became acquainted with a "born again" influenced, social and political culture and nearly uniform mindset, as similar...and foreign to me, anyway ....as the one that is described in the "Gore article", linked above, or the one that I observe in the opinions and reactions in the posts of about half of you, ......on these threads. The mindset is as "different" to my thinking and life experience, than George Bush's reaction and behavior to finding himself as a Yale alumni, for the 32 years after he graduated. I don't understand George, I can't comprehend how "working people" in the "new south" vote for candidates who obviously represent corporate interests and priorities, to the detriment of their citizen constituents, and I don't understand you folks, here. Now, a few observations and queations that confound the shit outta me....I've had a bird's eye view of the events,and their aftermath, that have most shaped recent American times, compared to most Americans, and I have a tendency to be more curious, and more apt to immerse myself in the details of what might be going on....than most other people.....can anyone answer the following questions, for me??? <b>[1]</b>How the "eff" did a thread with such a title, links, and comments, avoid being "moved" outta "politics", for this long? (I could never convince mods to even let my more reputably footnoted "endeavors" that leaned toward conjecture, remain on here...what's the "secret"? I'll opine that I feel strongly that any thread (or post) reinforced by links from mainstream sources, should never be moved....or CLOSED. The quality of the information displayed and the diminished future exposure that moving and closing serves to deprive those who might have read it if it had been left OPEN or "IN PLACE" on here, trumps any potential positive effect of "moderation", IMO. After all, isn't it about increasing the potential exposure to "hard news", to as many people who could come across an unaltered post or thread?? <b>[2]</b>How come the only source for the 9/11 "boxcutter as hijacker weapon" reports, can be narrowed down to coming from Ted Olson, wife of Flight 77 passenger Barbara Olson, and the solicitor general of the U.S., who told the SCOTUS that he believed there are times when it is appropriate for the federal goverment to lie to the citizenry? Ted allegedly "fed" the boxcutter "story" to his friend, a CNN exec. who had it posted on CNN's site, early on the morning of 9/12. <b>[3]</b>How come the only two major candidates for the 2004 Presidential election, were members of a Yale "secret society" that inducts just 15 members per year, and how come the major Washington DC newspaper assigned coverage of the campaigns of both candidates to a reporter who was also a member of that same "society"? How come the candidate who was the Yale "outsider", the man with no family tradition at Yale, had the "normal" alumni relationship with the school, similar to the ties that I had personally observed in my best friend's dad, and his former classmates, and the candidate who's Yale ties went back four generations, never visited as an alumni? Who did Yale, as an entity that boasted a long reputation for placing it's grads in high office, or the tiny secret society, truly want to see elected, or would either of the two "right" party candidates, mesh interchangeably? <b>[4]</b>How come the "new south" and other, more rural, "red state" constituencies, acted so "impacted" by the 9/11 attacks, that they backed the "War prez-nut" without question or dissent, and agreed to such expensive, aggressive, and wide ranging responses, when the area of impact was so remote from where they lived, was so contained, and had such a tiny impact on their day to day lives, while the folks living near "ground zero" failed to trust Bush, and half believed that he and his administration lied about what it knew before the 9/11 attack, and how earnestly it defended the area military and provided post disaster aid to surviving family of attack victims, for rebuilding, and for actual future security to cities most likely to be "hit"? <b>[5]</b>As I detailed in the post that I so cooperatively moved to the "P" word forum yesterday, before I was even required to......why are there so many contradictions in the 9/11 Commission report, if it is a sincere determination of what happened on 9/11, and why do all the folks who seem as foreign thinking...to me....as Bush does as a Yale alumni....seem not even curious enough to look into or to respond to discrepancies like the ones in my "P" thread post? Where does they're unquestioning "faith" in Bush come from? Why do they almost never cite MSM news reports when they defend Bush or disagree with what I post.? <b>[6]</b>If the MSM is so "liberal" in it's bias, how come last Sunday's NBC "Meet the Press", had three republican guests, and no democrats? <b>[7]</b>Trent Lott was on Chris Matthew's "Softball", the other day. He ranted that he was "mad" that his prez-nut, wouldn't even discuss the Dubai port deal.....just threatening to veto any effort by the congress controlled by his own "right" party, that attempts to interfere with the "DEAL". Lott pointed out that he represents PEOPLE!! Why does this all seem like a Karl Rove "Op" designed to deal with the reality that Bush is an anchor around repubs who have to run for election in late 2006? The "Dubai story" was public and under-reported by MSM for three months. Why did it suddenly make headlines, and why does it seem such a convenient vehicle for repub congressment to use to "push back" against Bush, and show the sheeple back home that they are independent representative and do not bow to Bush's every whim? <b>[8]</b>Can't a case be made that almost all federal elected officials of both "right" parties, are PLANTS that represent only the status quo and the goals of GE, Bank America, Lockheed, and whoever else pays the K street lobbyists? Why stop with just Bush? Who, in congress, represents working families that deserve the "playing field" balancing effects of strong unions, a progressive tax system, affordable health care, equal access to competent legal aid, women's health and reproductive services and clinics, honest and open government with active ethics enforcement, quality public financed education, and enforced environmental protection laws, fiscally sustaining and resource conserving energy and alternative energy resource policies, and a less confrontational foreign policy with an empahsis on defense of human rights? Since Carter was voted out, 26 years ago, I see only two "right" parties dominating the political spectrum. How do any of you justify arguing that it is any other way? Just like in the days after 9/11....ask yourself, who benefits from the outcome of the attack, or from our "elections". Is it most of us?