Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - Systems of religious belief help humans to kill each other.

The_Jazz · 03-01-2006, 05:40 AM

RCA - I think that you're still missing the basic point here. You are arguing that the SOLE basis for the Crusades (and now anti-semitism) and other wars was religious doctrine. Please go back and read what you wrote in Post #59, specifically the second sentence of the first paragraph. The Crusades were all about territorial expansion and control of various chunks of real estate, whether Jerusalem or elsewhere. Remember that Arabs controlled trade with India and China at the time, and that this was at least in part an attempt to gain further control of that trade at the outset of the First Crusade.

I'm not sure why this has now devolved into a discussion into anti-semitism, but I'll jump into the fray. Again, your arguement that the SOLE basis for violent anti-semitism is religious, and I just can't accept that under any circumstances. Now I will grant that mob action is very different than what we've previously discussed, that being organized violence and warfare. It is certainly possible for a preacher to whip up an afternoon of violence on an otherwise slow day and convince people to go lynch some jews. However, an orchestrated and lengthy campaign such as what was seen in the Russian Bund in the late 19th Century had less to do with religion and more to do with distracting the non-jewish population during a time of stress. The Black Hundreds appeared as an offical governmentally sanction hate group to oppress revolutionaries, many of whom were jews, and that group is best known for their pogroms.

As far as mob violence goes, we're again faced with the difference between motivation and justification. The mob acts because they are dealing with a percieved threat or by revenge. There are very few reasons that violent mobs form. Once the violence is done, leaders may justify the actions using scripture, but standing on a street corner and screaming that the Old Testament commands Christians to kill nonbelievers would only get you odd looks on most days in most places. There are obvious exceptions, such as when rumors were sweeping St. Petersburg that Jews were responsible for Alexander II's assassination in 1881, but again, this violence was revenge for perceived sins.

03-01-2006, 05:40 AM	#65 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	RCA - I think that you're still missing the basic point here. You are arguing that the SOLE basis for the Crusades (and now anti-semitism) and other wars was religious doctrine. Please go back and read what you wrote in Post #59, specifically the second sentence of the first paragraph. The Crusades were all about territorial expansion and control of various chunks of real estate, whether Jerusalem or elsewhere. Remember that Arabs controlled trade with India and China at the time, and that this was at least in part an attempt to gain further control of that trade at the outset of the First Crusade. I'm not sure why this has now devolved into a discussion into anti-semitism, but I'll jump into the fray. Again, your arguement that the SOLE basis for violent anti-semitism is religious, and I just can't accept that under any circumstances. Now I will grant that mob action is very different than what we've previously discussed, that being organized violence and warfare. It is certainly possible for a preacher to whip up an afternoon of violence on an otherwise slow day and convince people to go lynch some jews. However, an orchestrated and lengthy campaign such as what was seen in the Russian Bund in the late 19th Century had less to do with religion and more to do with distracting the non-jewish population during a time of stress. The Black Hundreds appeared as an offical governmentally sanction hate group to oppress revolutionaries, many of whom were jews, and that group is best known for their pogroms. As far as mob violence goes, we're again faced with the difference between motivation and justification. The mob acts because they are dealing with a percieved threat or by revenge. There are very few reasons that violent mobs form. Once the violence is done, leaders may justify the actions using scripture, but standing on a street corner and screaming that the Old Testament commands Christians to kill nonbelievers would only get you odd looks on most days in most places. There are obvious exceptions, such as when rumors were sweeping St. Petersburg that Jews were responsible for Alexander II's assassination in 1881, but again, this violence was revenge for perceived sins. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo