View Single Post
Old 02-28-2006, 06:24 PM   #56 (permalink)
RCAlyra2004
Crazy
 
Location: North of the 50th Parallel
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz
I was right there with you until you got to the Old Testament. Let's keep with your analogy of a 15th Century devout Catholic man who you've told that the Bible is "wrong". I completely agree that this hypothetical guy would probably keep his kids away from you at the very least, especially considering that the 15th Century was the beginning of the Reformation and the Protestant churches. There may be one passage in the Old Testament that obligates him to kill me, but there are other passages that prohibit him from eating pork, and we know that there was certainly no such ban among Catholics at the time.

Let's look at that guy's neighbor, the devout Jew, who is going to ONLY subcribe to the Old Testament including Deuteronomy 13. Now, when you tell this same individual that you don't believe in the Bible and more specifically the Old Testament that he subscribes to, are you going to fear for your life. The obvious answer is no, and I don't see any reason where it would ever be yes except in circumstances that are outside the religious aspect (he wants to kill and rob you, he's a psychopath, etc.). Your basic premise is that the Old Testament commands death to nonbelievers, and the historical record just doesn't support that arguement. There is no record of Jewish armies wrecking havoc on their enemies and committing genocide against the unfaithful in the 15th Century or otherwise.

I don't see where you've faulted my logic or my arguement. There are certainly competing passages within the Old and New Testament concerning the treatment of nonbelievers, but individuals interprete them and discard the ones don't seem relevant. I don't think that there's been any sort of historical genocide, before or after the word was coined after the post WWI slaughter of the Armenians by the Turks, that was solely motivated by Scripture. Please point out what I've missed.

As far as the Crusades go, most of them were pretty blatant attempts to either annex territory from the Byzantines, go on plundering expeditions, defend the Byzantines or recapture territory lost from previous Crusdades. The men involved were most certainly considered "defenders of the faith", but that had little or nothing to do with why they went in the first place.

Suicide bombers typically aren't out to acheive martyrdom - that's a fringe benefit. They're out to inflict injury on their enemy. That's why the translation for "jihad" is "holy war". It's a war with motivations rooted very firmly in the secular world.
Well at least we are that close in our thinking... By the way I don't really fault your logic...except to say that, for the reasons I have mentioned above, those who spoke out against the church were threatened with death. and many were killed.

You asked me to show you a case where people were killed based on scripture... I did.

However... I must ask... how did AntiSemitism during the 1500's 1600's etc really work? Why did the average Anglican of the 1600's consider the jew to be "faithless"? The answer is that it says so ... right in the copy of the anglican prayer book I have here on my desk.(The "faithless" jew was not considered to have been saved by grace, consequently many were tortured by catholics or forced to convert (fact)) This happened in many parts of the world... not just spain.

Again.. there may have been other motivations lurking.. but they were still killed.

It wasn't till 1965, that that particular prayer book changed. (I have both versions) By the way the 1600's version was originally derived from the Catholic prayer book. At the back it describes the "Romish"(Means Catholic) faith as "repugnant". There is no question that these documents encouraged bigotry, the first step toward hatred...

So what's next
... I'll go online and look for as many examples of Anti semetic history as I can


Lets look and see how and why the Jews were persecuted...
__________________
Living on the edge of sanity
RCAlyra2004 is offline  
 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360