Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - Systems of religious belief help humans to kill each other.

The_Jazz · 02-28-2006, 05:50 AM

RCA - I think that we have finally found some middle ground here. My entire point has always been that you can take doctrine out of ANY religious text - Christian, Jewish, Islam, Buddhist, etc. - and use it as justification for war or killing. I don't think there's any debate about that. I think that you're still missing my fundamental point, though, which is that the religion is the justification not the motivation for war. Here's my challenge for you: find a war or even a long-term conflict such as Inquisition or the Salem Witch Trials in the entirety of human history that was motivated solely by religion. I think that you will come up short. There is ALWAYS an underlying social, political or economic motivation for these conflicts, and religion is just the excuse used to remedy these conflicts. To say that people fight wars solely based on religious texts or even a preacher's say-so is to ignore basic human behavior.

Look, in every example that we've discussed, there has been some reason for one group to come into conflict with another. In Salem, there was property and control of a previously ungoverned community at stake. In Israel, it has always been control sacred sites, although in the recent past that has expanded into who controls the local economy. The 9/11 terrorists attacked US foreign and economic policy simply by the selection of their targets.

I think that you're confusing motivation and justification here, and there is certainly a set order of operations when it comes to any sizeable conflict like we're discussing. First people disagree over something, then as tensions rise they start looking for other diffences between the two groups and religion is often one of them. Looking to dogma for justification is simply a way of yelling "of course we're right" even louder.

Honestly, your point about some religions being more violent than others pretty much ignores historical evidence and basic human nature. There is no such thing as a culture that is more violent than any other, because an inherently violent culture would eventually kill off all of its members. Until the last 60 years or so, the Middle East was a relatively peaceful place, with only some minor scirmishes over territory and resources, the same as anywhere else in the world. The advent of Israel turned that on its head to an extent, although the end of 75 years of colonialism had something to do with the violence as well. There were Jews and Arabs living side by side along with Christians and everyone got along relatively well, the same as anywhere else. The Jewish seizure of power in 1947 upset that equalibrium, and that's the root of today's conflict. I enthusiastically conceed that there have been other issues piled upon that root, but that's what the modern conflict sprang from. If you want to go to earlier Muslim/Christian conflicts (we can't really talk about Muslim/Jewish conflicts because of the diaspora and lack of a united Jewish movement in the area until the mid-20th century), we have to go back to the Ottoman Empire, which was basically an expansionist power that conflicted with the other two expansionist powers in the area at the time, Austria-Hungary and the Russian Empire. Neither of those conflicts had anything at all to do with religion but everything to do with economics (Russian access to the Black Sea and later the Mediterranean) and politics (Austro-Hungarian control of the Southeastern Europe). Let's not forget that France and England propped up the Islamic Ottoman Empire and its leader, the Sultan who was nominally the religious leader of all of his Islamic subjects, and these two powers successfully fought a war started by the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, Tsar Nicholas I (Crimean War).

Basically, there's no inherent conflict between any two religions, and there are lots of examples where two religions that are in conflict in one part of the world live in relative harmony in another part. To insist that Jews and Muslims feel compelled by their respective Gods to make war on each other ignores all of the other, more important motivations that human beings have.

02-28-2006, 05:50 AM	#40 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	RCA - I think that we have finally found some middle ground here. My entire point has always been that you can take doctrine out of ANY religious text - Christian, Jewish, Islam, Buddhist, etc. - and use it as justification for war or killing. I don't think there's any debate about that. I think that you're still missing my fundamental point, though, which is that the religion is the justification not the motivation for war. Here's my challenge for you: find a war or even a long-term conflict such as Inquisition or the Salem Witch Trials in the entirety of human history that was motivated solely by religion. I think that you will come up short. There is ALWAYS an underlying social, political or economic motivation for these conflicts, and religion is just the excuse used to remedy these conflicts. To say that people fight wars solely based on religious texts or even a preacher's say-so is to ignore basic human behavior. Look, in every example that we've discussed, there has been some reason for one group to come into conflict with another. In Salem, there was property and control of a previously ungoverned community at stake. In Israel, it has always been control sacred sites, although in the recent past that has expanded into who controls the local economy. The 9/11 terrorists attacked US foreign and economic policy simply by the selection of their targets. I think that you're confusing motivation and justification here, and there is certainly a set order of operations when it comes to any sizeable conflict like we're discussing. First people disagree over something, then as tensions rise they start looking for other diffences between the two groups and religion is often one of them. Looking to dogma for justification is simply a way of yelling "of course we're right" even louder. Honestly, your point about some religions being more violent than others pretty much ignores historical evidence and basic human nature. There is no such thing as a culture that is more violent than any other, because an inherently violent culture would eventually kill off all of its members. Until the last 60 years or so, the Middle East was a relatively peaceful place, with only some minor scirmishes over territory and resources, the same as anywhere else in the world. The advent of Israel turned that on its head to an extent, although the end of 75 years of colonialism had something to do with the violence as well. There were Jews and Arabs living side by side along with Christians and everyone got along relatively well, the same as anywhere else. The Jewish seizure of power in 1947 upset that equalibrium, and that's the root of today's conflict. I enthusiastically conceed that there have been other issues piled upon that root, but that's what the modern conflict sprang from. If you want to go to earlier Muslim/Christian conflicts (we can't really talk about Muslim/Jewish conflicts because of the diaspora and lack of a united Jewish movement in the area until the mid-20th century), we have to go back to the Ottoman Empire, which was basically an expansionist power that conflicted with the other two expansionist powers in the area at the time, Austria-Hungary and the Russian Empire. Neither of those conflicts had anything at all to do with religion but everything to do with economics (Russian access to the Black Sea and later the Mediterranean) and politics (Austro-Hungarian control of the Southeastern Europe). Let's not forget that France and England propped up the Islamic Ottoman Empire and its leader, the Sultan who was nominally the religious leader of all of his Islamic subjects, and these two powers successfully fought a war started by the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, Tsar Nicholas I (Crimean War). Basically, there's no inherent conflict between any two religions, and there are lots of examples where two religions that are in conflict in one part of the world live in relative harmony in another part. To insist that Jews and Muslims feel compelled by their respective Gods to make war on each other ignores all of the other, more important motivations that human beings have. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo